Oil

[Retired Wrencher 5,455]

Hi. Just wondering if you can use synthetic oil in the old Kholers engines? I only have one tractor use it mostly in the winter. Hate changing oil for the seasons. Thanks in Advance.

[ebinmaine 67,498]

Seems to me it depends on how many hours a year you use the tractor..

You can run synthetic but it still needs to changed every 20-25 hours.  

 

We run straight 30 year-round in everything but my Cinnamon Horse C160. That gets 10w30 for the winter so it starts easier. 

Our two workers get oil changed 2 or 3 times a year. The others maybe annual. 

 

[rjg854 11,361]

I've never had a problem running 30w oil year round in any of my tractors.  Most every one starts at the turn of the key, unless they have sat for an extended period of time.

[Retired Wrencher 5,455]

23 hours ago, ebinmaine said:

Seems to me it depends on how many hours a year you use the tractor..

You can run synthetic but it still needs to changed every 20-25 hours.  

 

We run straight 30 year-round in everything but my Cinnamon Horse C160. That gets 10w30 for the winter so it starts easier. 

Our two workers get oil changed 2 or 3 times a year. The others maybe annual. 

 

So Eric the smaller tractors start fine with  w30? I only have a B80 and it is in a insulated with sheet rock garage.

[ebinmaine 67,498]

6 minutes ago, Retierd Wrencher said:

So Eric the smaller tractors start fine with  w30? I only have a B80 and it is in a insulated with sheet rock garage.

Yeah you'll be fine. We run straight 30 in Trina's Kohler 8 which sits undercover but out in the cold.

Inside a garage like you have I wouldn't even think about changing over to 10w30.

 

Just keep an eye on your hours of use...

[Retired Wrencher 5,455]

4 hours ago, ebinmaine said:

Yeah you'll be fine. We run straight 30 in Trina's Kohler 8 which sits undercover but out in the cold.

Inside a garage like you have I wouldn't even think about changing over to 10w30.

 

Just keep an eye on your hours of use...

I found another b80 in nice shape with a plow and chains. The original seat is mint from I can see. Will post. This solves my issue. Been thinking this for a while. But $$ was the issue. People think these are gold.

[ebinmaine 67,498]

Just now, Retierd Wrencher said:

I found another b80 in nice shape with a plow and chains. The original seat is mint from I can see. Will post. This solves my issue. Been thinking this for a while. But $$ was the issue. People think these are gold.

Excellent. I'll be looking forward to seeing that one.

[Retired Wrencher 5,455]

I have not done an video in a long time = years maybe will do that.

[balconio 606]

I've experienced leaks when using full synthetic oil on older engines. I would only use it in newer all aluminum engines like Honda clones. These older cast iron side valve engines seem to like dino oil, straight 30W unless it's below freezing, then switch to 10w-30.

[Zeek 2,286]

I use 30W non-detergent in all my old Kohlers.  Not sure I need to, but works for me. I use full synthetic in everything else including a 193,000 Lexus I change at 7,000. Barely gets dirty and uses zero oil (at least it stays full on the stick and doesn't smoke). I could probably go 10K or farther according to the studies on modern synthetics, just haven't made that leap after being brought up in the 80's with oil burners and 3K. 

[squonk 41,118]

4 minutes ago, Zeek said:

I use 30W non-detergent in all my old Kohlers.  Not sure I need to, but works for me. I use full synthetic in everything else including a 193,000 Lexus I change at 7,000. Barely gets dirty and uses zero oil (at least it stays full on the stick and doesn't smoke). I could probably go 10K or farther according to the studies on modern synthetics, just haven't made that leap after being brought up in the 80's with oil burners and 3K. 

Zeek Kohler says Detergent oil.

[squonk 41,118]

30W Rotella year round. This engine has had Rotella for 10 years. 1000 hours and I took it apart because the balance gears bean to rattle. Look how clean it is. No sludge or gunk.

 

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

29 minutes ago, squonk said:

30W Rotella year round

 

Me too, in all my equipment.  Maybe even longer than 10 years ... time flies!

 

To be even clearer, it's the Rotella T1 30W DIESEL oil that I use.  And, it's significantly cheaper than others.  I pay about $16 / gallon at Wally World.

 

Here's something I did not know:

 

 

 

Edited July 14, 2021 by Jeff-C175

[tom2p 2,394]

synthetic oil can/will find it's way past old/bad seals simply because it flows better - especially at low temps 

 

there are synthetic oils that claim to have additives to help seals or marketed for 'high mileage' - but have no experience with them ... might just be all marketing ...

 

there are good conventional oils available - but I've used synthetic oil in everything since mid 80's (including our old 64 704)

 

[BOB ELLISON 2,981]

I use 10w30 mobile 1 in my C160 and never a problem starting in the winter but you need to have good seals or it will leak. But I have been reading about adding zink supplements to it just in case it needs help. I believe that the rottela diesel contains zink so I'm thinking of changing over to that this year. I think @squonk has the best oil suggestion and I'm going to charge to. 

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

22 hours ago, BOB ELLISON said:

rottela diesel contains zink

 

It does.  I think all oils do to some extent, just don't have data on how much.  [edit: SN oils are typically around 800 ppm according to my research]  Definitely reduced since the 'good old days' though.

 

A generous user at "Bob is the Oil Guy" website contributed a Blackstone analysis on some UNUSED Rotella T1 30W:

 

 

The Chevron Delo 400  has even more Zinc but is also substantially more expensive and the Zinc could be added back with some ZDDP additives at less cost.  ( 11 oz bottle of Rislone for $6 at 2 oz per quart (MORE than enough!) would treat almost 6 qts of oil at the 7% dosage that Rislone recommends. [ later edit: This dosage is for SN oils with appx 800 ppm of Zn already in them.  You only need about half that to get to appx 1500 ppm with Rotella T1, see later posts for more info ]) 

 

Here's the info on the Delo 400, note even more Zinc and Phosphorous:

 

SAE 30 cf/sl.

ZERO values not shown here

aluminum-3

silicon-4

sodium-2

potassium-2

moly-103

antimony-1

boron-146

magnesium-13

calcium-3297

phos-1379

zinc-1647

 

I add ONE ounce of ZDDP per quart to my T1.  (which is probably still more than enough given that there is a pretty good amount already in the Rotella)

 

 

Edited July 15, 2021 by Jeff-C175
added info

[Zeek 2,286]

6 hours ago, Jeff-C175 said:

 

Me too, in all my equipment.  Maybe even longer than 10 years ... time flies!

 

To be even clearer, it's the Rotella T1 30W DIESEL oil that I use.  And, it's significantly cheaper than others.  I pay about $16 / gallon at Wally World.

 

Here's something I did not know:

 

 

 

Guess I never thought about this in gas engines. After reading this I looked up some things online and see a lot do that. I live a warm climate so I don't need multi-viscosity. I'll have to keep this in mind, my Kohler Command on my zero-turn is coming due soon. 

[peter lena 8,627]

@BOB ELLISON , on the oil answer , been using RISLONE ZINK ADDITIVE  in all my oils now , without a doubt , it frees up your engine and helps clean out the crud ,too. agree with @squonk on the rotella oil also , really like that the zink  makes newer oils work in older engines , you can notice and feel the ease in how it works , the milky residue that was a regular in my dip stick tube is gone, the dip stick looks shinny new, my oil lasts longer , and my changes look like coal oil . when ever I send in a response , its on the stuff that works for me , I actually use it. amazon has rislone products , that's where I get mine  , also ships free , lubrication  addict, pete 

[lynnmor 7,306]

A reduction of ZDDP (zinc & phosphorus) was mandated by the feds, much like the ethanol and bio-diesel scam.  Just look on the oil container and if you see the SN designation, those anti-wear ingredients are real low.  I believe that all oils meant for automobiles now are SN and aren't the best for your engines.  The S stands for spark ignition and the C stands for compression ignition (diesel), the C oils like Rotella still have some ZDDP.   You can use an additive to increase the zinc level, but know that too much can cause corrosion and can be harmful in too high of a level, unless you are a chemist it is only a guess what is best.  Using C oils might be OK but know that the additive package may not be the best for gasoline engines.  I made a choice to switch from auto and diesel oils and now use Kohler oil that has the zinc and not the dreaded SN designation.

[ebinmaine 67,498]

1 hour ago, lynnmor said:

made a choice to switch from auto and diesel oils and now use Kohler oil that has the zinc and not the dreaded SN designation

I did the same but to Kinetix. 

 

I don't know the level of zddp. It's specifically designed for our usages. 

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

3 hours ago, lynnmor said:

the additive package may not be the best for gasoline engines

 

On Chevron's website they state that their Delo 400 diesel oil is appropriate for use in power equipment 4 stroke gasoline engines.  I could find no such statement on the Shell website but there's a pretty substantial amount of data from long time users that it's just fine.

 

I def agree that one should not go crazy with the ZDDP though.  Rislone recommends not more than 7% by volume which works out to about 2 oz per quart.  I use half that.

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

One more point about ZDDP;  it's mandated reduction is what has driven the move by manufacturers to the use of roller tappets as flat tappets are the engine component most affected by the reduction of ZDDP.

[lynnmor 7,306]

5 hours ago, Jeff-C175 said:

 

I def agree that one should not go crazy with the ZDDP though.  Rislone recommends not more than 7% by volume which works out to about 2 oz per quart.  I use half that.

 

Rislone does not know the amount of ZDDP that is in the oil you have selected so it is only a wild guess as to how much to add.

[ebinmaine 67,498]

51 minutes ago, lynnmor said:

 

Rislone does not know the amount of ZDDP that is in the oil you have selected so it is only a wild guess as to how much to add.

One would hope they went with the "less is more" level but that's a valid point.  

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

4 hours ago, lynnmor said:

 

Rislone does not know the amount of ZDDP that is in the oil you have selected so it is only a wild guess as to how much to add.

 

Agreed.  but 'wild guess' may be pushing it a bit.  It's pretty well established that SN oils run around 800 ppm Zn.  Rislones dosage recommendation is based on it's use in SN oils, see below.

 

I found this on the Amsoil website:

 

Quote

After break-in, we recommend using an oil with at least 1,000 ppm ZDDP in a flat-tappet engine.

 

So based on the Blackstone analysis of the Rotella T1, one shouldn't need to add any zinc.

 

But there's also this:

 

Quote

AMSOIL Z-ROD Synthetic Motor Oil, our primary recommendation for classic cars and hot rods, contains more than…

• 1,400 ppm zinc
• 1,300 ppm phosphorus

 

Which tells us that "at least" 1000 ppm is OK, but going as high as, or "more than" 1400 ppm isn't bad.

 

So, as a user, knowing what is already in your oil it becomes necessary to understand how much zinc one might be adding with say 1-2 oz per quart of the additive.

 

OK, it appears that conventional SN oils are typically in the neighborhood of 800 ppm Zn by mandate, not higher.

 

Rislone says this about their ZDDP supplement:

 

Quote

 

So it would seem that a 7% dosage ( appx 2 oz Rislone / qt of SN @ 800 ppm Zn ) that dosage rate would be adding appx 1000 ppm to the mix.

 

If one were starting at appx 1000 ppm (Rotella T1) adding ONE oz / qt would appear to get you into the Zn range of appx 1500 ppm Zn which is where the motor oils of yesteryear used to be before 1992.

 

My opinion is that adding 1 oz/qt of Rislone to Rotella T1 is not so high as to cause the oil to become acidic and cause corrosion.  Also that the Rotella T1 by itself @ 1000 ppm is probably 'good enough' without the additive.

 

 

Edited July 15, 2021 by Jeff-C175