The C-175 project

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

18 minutes ago, Gregor said:

buy a dozen vr's

 

Aren't they around a hundred bucks?

 

It's not likely to tell you anything.

 

You need to find out where you're dropping voltage.

[Gregor 4,846]

I think what I really need is a good wiring diagram for this tractor. Are all C series diagrams the same?

 

The one I ordered o ebay was $30

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

5 minutes ago, Gregor said:

I think what I really need is a good wiring diagram for this tractor. Are all C series diagrams the same?

 

The one I ordered o ebay was $30

 

Did you say that you had to rewire it?

 

If so, what gauge wire did you use?

 

Not sure if they're all the same or not.  Is that what you used if when you rewired?

 

$30 ain't too bad.  I paid a lot more than that when I replaced the one on my pressure washer.

Edited July 23, 2021 by Jeff-C175

[Gregor 4,846]

I completely rewire all my tractors. All wire except battery cables is 14 ga. The PTO switch was gone when I got the tractor, it is bypassed. This is the diagram I have. Is it correct?

My Tractor model number is 17Kso2, which Tractordata.com doesn't list. So I can't verify the year.

[Gregor 4,846]

Maybe I will redo the wiring to the ignition switch. I'm not very proud of it. With the PTO switch being bypassed, I used a lot of double up terminal ends.

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

2 minutes ago, Gregor said:

17Kso2, which Tractordata.com doesn't list

 

Actually it is listed as a footnote.  I believe I posted that earlier in this thread.

 

14 ga should be fine.  Let me study that diagram for a bit.

 

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

Where exactly did you connect the voltmeter?

[Gregor 4,846]

Since this tractor has a Briggs twin, with magneto ignition, it has an ignition switch for magneto ignition. The - post on volt meter is connected to Gnd on switch. The + post on volt meter is connected to Bat on switch.

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

8 minutes ago, Gregor said:

Since this tractor has a Briggs twin, with magneto ignition, it has an ignition switch for magneto ignition. The - post on volt meter is connected to Gnd on switch. The + post on volt meter is connected to Bat on switch.

 

OK, then do the test to look for voltage drop between the gauge and the battery.

 

My bet is that you will find the drop across the fuse holder.

[Gregor 4,846]

9 hours ago, Jeff-C175 said:

OK, then do the test to look for voltage drop between the gauge and the battery.

There is no fuse in the line between the volt meter and the ignition switch.  I s'pose there should be.

Edit:

While sitting here waiting for Leave It To Beaver to come on, I added an inline fuse between the volt meter, and ignition switch.

Edited July 23, 2021 by Gregor

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

3 hours ago, Gregor said:

waiting for Leave It To Beaver to come on

 

HA!  I've been watching those re-runs too!  "Ward, don't you think you're being a little hard on the beaver?"  

 

OK, I scribbled a little bit on the diagram.

 

Since you are measuring 13.7 at the battery and 16.7 at the gauge, it means there must be a voltage drop on the RED and LIGHT GREEN wires...  OR on the GROUND path.

 

If you measure from the battery + to the point on the switch where you connected the gauge, you should see darn near ZERO since it is opposite ends of a wire.

 

If you measure 3 Volts it means that wire has voltage drop somewhere along it's path.  By measuring at various points along that path you should be able to narrow down where the drop is occurring.

 

Could be the connection at the solenoid, at the fuse, maybe at the ammeter, or at the switch.

 

 

[Gregor 4,846]

When I came out to the garage this morning the battery voltage was 12.8. A while ago, I turned on the lights, in order to drain the battery a bit. When it gets down to 11.5, I will start it up,  run it at 1/2 throttle, and see how the battery recharges. Of course, I have to wait til after Leave It To Beaver.

26 minutes ago, Jeff-C175 said:

Could be the connection at the solenoid, at the fuse, maybe at the ammeter, or at the switch.

 

I did measure voltage at various points with the tractor off. The highest reading I got was .3. Maybe this proves nothing.

 

I know how to wire things. Switches, relays, lights, motors, and various other components, but when it comes to current flow, or draw, I know less than nothing.

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

31 minutes ago, Gregor said:

The highest reading I got was .3. Maybe this proves nothing

 

Might prove nothing but should tell us something!

 

31 minutes ago, Gregor said:

when it comes to current flow, or draw, I know less than nothing.

 

I think you know more than you think you do!

 

What about when you measure from the battery NEGATIVE to the point that you have the NEGATIVE of the gauge connected?  Do  you see a drop there?  Maybe you have a bad ground somewhere?

 

If your gauge is reading 3 volts higher (verified by your Fluke meter) than the battery, there HAS to be a voltage drop SOMEWHERE in the system!

 

Edited July 23, 2021 by Jeff-C175

[Gregor 4,846]

42 minutes ago, Gregor said:

The highest reading I got was .3.

Notice it's point 3

 

The battery voltage was down to 11.1 I used my jump pack to start it. Running at 220RPM.  Dash meter and VOM agree at 13.1

 

I did clean up and consolidate some of the wiring on the switch. Less 1/4 spade connectors, much cleaner now.

Edited July 23, 2021 by Gregor

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

32 minutes ago, Gregor said:

Notice it's point 3

 

The battery voltage was down to 11.1 I used my jump pack to start it. Running at 220RPM.  Dash meter and VOM agree at 13.1

 

I did clean up and consolidate some of the wiring on the switch. Less 1/4 spade connectors, much cleaner now.

 

Yes, I did notice that decimal in there.

 

Let's recap because I'm not sure we're on the same page still.

 

You posted earlier that you were measuring 13.7 V at the battery, and I presume this means right on the battery posts.

 

You said that you measured with your Fluke 16.7 at the Volt Gauge terminals.

 

So that's a THREE volt difference.

 

Somewhere, you're dropping THREE volts in the wiring, etc.

 

That's what I was trying to help find by advising to go from POSITIVE on the BATTERY to POSITIVE on the GAUGE.

 

And likewise ditto on the NEGATIVE on the Battery to NEGATIVE on the gauge.

 

This would begin to pinpoint where you are dropping that voltage.

 

To have a VOLTAGE drop when there is CURRENT flowing means there is RESISTANCE in the circuit.

 

RESISTANCE in the circuit is caused by bad CONNECTIONS, or too small a wire gauge (which 14ga should be OK so it's probably NOT that)

 

 

Edited July 23, 2021 by Jeff-C175

[Gregor 4,846]

30 minutes run time @ 2200 RPM. Shut tractor down, both meters agree at 12.4 volts. Start the tractor. Battery at idle, 12 .4 volts. Both meters agree. Full throttle 13.4 volts on Vom, dash meter slightly higher. Voltage at posts on dash meter. 13.7 volts.

Maybe cleaning up the wiring and some ground point helped. I'll see what happens when I go on my cruise.

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

2 minutes ago, Gregor said:

Maybe cleaning up the wiring and some ground point helped

 

Sounds like it!  

 

The reason that the matched exactly with the tractor OFF is because there was no CURRENT flow.  

 

When you ran the tractor and current was flowing, and small RESISTANCE in the circuit caused the zero point three volt drop that you are now seeing.

 

You might could get it better than that by continuing to clean up the connections and such, but zero point three volts is probably nothing to be concerned with.  

 

I would say it's working as it should be for now!

 

[Gregor 4,846]

I cruised for an hour and 15 minutes. The tractor never once hiccuped. Which is a good thing as it would have been a long walk home. I stopped periodically to check battery voltage. At idle 12.9, at full throttle 13.4. The dash mounted volt meter never reached 14 V. I think one of my problems is, I like paint. A lot of paint. 2 coats primer, several coats color, and at least 2 coats clear. This practice may be preventing me from getting that all important COMPLETE ground at times. This morning I cleaned up some wiring, and also removed the VR.  Scraped away some paint to insure a good ground. Maybe that, or a combination of things, fixed the problem, but to me, I think it's OK now. Thanks for all the help @Jeff-C175 and all.

 

Greg

 

P.S. I think maybe I need shock absorbers, and a rear view mirror.

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

35 minutes ago, Gregor said:

Scraped away some paint to insure a good ground

 

That's my bet on the cause of the problem!  You had 'resistors' on your grounds!  

 

Quote

I think it's OK now

 

Me too!

 

Edited July 23, 2021 by Jeff-C175

[Roger R 448]

Be careful trusting after market dash mount volt meters.  I added a brand name meter to mine (never had a meter before) and could never get it to read over 11 volts.  Checked at the meter terminals with an accurate digital and there was a nearly 4 volt difference.  I figured  at that point there was nothing to lose, so I broke open the meter, and sure enough there was an internal trim pot, which was never properly calibrated at the factory.  A bit of adjustment and good to go. Readings are now as expected.