The C-175 project

[JohnD 145]

Gregor, are those metal fenders on a C-175?  I didn't know that was an option.  Nice work! 

 

[Gregor 4,846]

The fender pan on the C-175 was originally plastic. This one had been replaced by something other than Wheel Horse before I got it. The Plastic fender pans usually did not survive as the plastic became old and brittle. The fender pan on my 125 was plastic, and broken beyond repair.

The Fender pans on both of them have been replaced by a metal pan from another C series tractor. They bolt right up.

 

[OutdoorEnvy 1,522]

Nice work on that tractor.  Looks great from my seat!  A shame it will be your last.  If you did decide to sell and make room you might also be able to swing another storage building/Shed of sorts too. 

[Gregor 4,846]

I took the 175 out for a ride around town today, just because I could. It performed perfectly. Except ! 

I am not sure quite what to make of this. The volt meter reads about 13 V at idle. 1020 RPM.

 

At full throttle, 2800 RPM, it reads almost 18 volts.

 

Am I going to cook a battery? Faulty regulator? It's a brand new battery installed this morning. Is this a problem, or is it as usual, and I am worried about nothing.?  Thanks  Greg

 

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

23 minutes ago, Gregor said:

Am I going to cook a battery?

 

If that high voltage is real, probably, in fact most likely!  Probably burn out the headlights too!

 

23 minutes ago, Gregor said:

Faulty regulator?

 

Could be.

 

23 minutes ago, Gregor said:

Is this a problem, or is it as usual, and I am worried about nothing.?

 

We need another piece of information.  You surely have a multimeter.  Verify that the gauge is correct first.  Measure the voltage AT the Battery.

 

I would definitely NOT call that worrying about nothing!  You shouldn't see over let's say 15V absolute MAX and I would not even be happy with that high.  I personally would want to see 14.5V or LESS (but above the nominal non-running battery voltage)

 

This is a case where the fellows that don't like ammeters and prefer voltmeters are missing out on a vital piece of information!

Edited July 22, 2021 by Jeff-C175

[Gregor 4,846]

I checked with 2 meters. The Fluke (better meter) says 15.5 at full throttle. The other says 16.3.  Maybe I had better be looking for a part number for a new VR.  Tractor off, 13 V. I took it on a 1 mile ride today. The 175 has a place in the dash for another meter. Maybe I could add an ammeter.

Edited July 22, 2021 by Gregor

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

8 minutes ago, Gregor said:

Maybe I could add an ammeter.

 

The stock machines would have the ammeter where you've got the voltmeter.  Did yours have anything there when you got it?

 

The cutout on the left was where the optional hour meter would have been mounted.

 

sure you could add an ammeter!  Just make sure to fuse it if you are afraid of it shorting to ground somehow.

 

[ebinmaine 67,623]

46 minutes ago, Jeff-C175 said:

vital piece of information

What is that?

 

4 minutes ago, Jeff-C175 said:

shorting to ground

It's not shorting to external ground but internal shorts that make me remove ammeters.  

 

If there's a way to have an ammeter that's safe I'd absolutely do it. 

 

[Gregor 4,846]

4 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

It's not shorting to external ground but internal shorts that make me remove ammeters.  

Would a fuse not protect against that?

[Gregor 4,846]

 I ordered a new OEM Briggs VR, (so they say) from ebay. We'll see if it makes a difference. I still have the ammeter, so I could install it. I switched out the ammeter for the volt meter, because most of the talk on here was, that was the thing to do. So I dood. I'm gonna let out my stupid here and ask, what would an ammeter tell me in this situation?

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

40 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

What is that?

 

I like to know how many Amps my battery is charging at.

 

40 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

t's not shorting to external ground but internal shorts that make me remove ammeters.  

 

An internal short from one lead to the other should not cause any issues.  All that should happen is that the ammeter no longer functions.

 

The danger comes when there's a short to ground as the ammeter leads are typically on the positive side of the electrical system.

 

Putting the ammeter in the negative leg would tend to remove that danger but I don't think that's easy to do on our tractors given the wiring architecture.

 

38 minutes ago, Gregor said:

Would a fuse not protect against that?

 

As above, one would not have to worry about an internal short from one lead to the other in an ammeter.

 

If I'm wrong about that I would like to hear the logic and reasoning for it so I may change my thinking if necessary.

 

[Maxwell-8 4,277]

My c175 blew a battery because of a faulty charging system, previous owner swapped the engine a did the wiring incorrect. Think the alterantor broke too.

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

12 minutes ago, Maxwell-8 said:

blew a battery

 

And that is NOT something I would wish on anyone!  Even if the battery doesn't PHYSICALLY "blow", the resultant acid mess when it boils over is a b1tch4 to clean up and opening the wallet for a new battery isn't typically my idea of fun either!

 

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

59 minutes ago, Gregor said:

what would an ammeter tell me in this situation?

 

It would tell you if the battery was being charged (positive deflection) or discharged (negative deflection) and by 'relatively' how much.  Those ammeters are far from being a calibrated instrument!  At best, it's only a relative indication of the amount of charge.  

 

Most autos these days don't have a voltmeter, if they have a gauge at all, it's an ammeter.  At worst they have an idiot light which is based on charge CURRENT and not Voltage.

 

In the case of you seeing a lot of voltage at your battery, I would expect the ammeter to be showing a charge when the battery did not need it.

 

If your battery is NEW and you put it on a charger before installing it, allowed it to get to full charge, and then installed it, I would not expect to see much deflection of the ammeter in either direction.

 

Battery is charged, regulator should be able to sense that, and not keep charging (or OVER charging) the battery.

 

Edited July 22, 2021 by Jeff-C175

[Gregor 4,846]

Once again, curiosity got the better of me, so I temporarily installed the ammeter in line, complete with fuse. First pic shows full throttle, second pic shows idle. The ammeter does tend to jump around a bit.. I think I will buy a new meter and install it in the dash, with a fuse on both sides.

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

2 minutes ago, Gregor said:

First pic shows full throttle, second pic shows idle

 

When you let the machine sit for a day, what is the 'resting' voltage on the battery?

 

If it's a new battery, after you start it I would expect the ammeter to deflect upward to replace the 'juice' you just took out, but then after a short while of recharging that 'juice' it should move more toward center as your idle pic shows.

 

If it STAYS high, you are in danger of overcharging that battery.

 

[Gregor 4,846]

30 minutes ago, Maxwell-8 said:

My c175 blew a battery because of a faulty charging system

That would literally make me sick. I couldn't imagine the mess that would make. If I have to, I will install a toggle switch on the charging circuit, and turn it off, when the voltage gets to high. Gotta be better than blowing up a battery.

 

8 minutes ago, Jeff-C175 said:

When you let the machine sit for a day, what is the 'resting' voltage on the battery?

I will check it tonight, and again tomorrow.

 

Right now the battery voltage is;

Tractor not running,  12.9

Tractor at idle,           12.9

Tractor at full throttle  13.7

 

Checked with my Fluke VOM.

Maybe my dash mounted volt meter is just goofy. It still shows 17+ volts at full throttle.

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

20 minutes ago, Gregor said:

Right now the battery voltage is;

Tractor not running,  12.9

Tractor at idle,           12.9

Tractor at full throttle  13.7

 

Checked with my Fluke VOM.

Maybe my dash mounted volt meter is just goofy. It still shows 17+ volts at full throttle.

 

Actually, those numbers look perfectly fine!

 

It's very possible that the gauge is caddy wompus.

 

If you measure the voltage across the volt meter terminals, rather than at the battery, what do you read there?  Is it the same as at the battery?  If not, there's some voltage drop on the wiring, somewhere...

 

After you start it, and run for say a half hour or so, does the ammeter settle back toward zero even at full throttle? 

 

If so, you can probably conclude that the voltmeter is goofy.

 

On the other hand,  if the AMMETER does not come down shortly after starting it means that it's continuing to charge even though the battery is likely already fully charged.

 

Edited July 22, 2021 by Jeff-C175

[Handy Don 12,237]

12 minutes ago, Gregor said:

That would literally make me sick. I couldn't imagine the mess that would make. If I have to, I will install a toggle switch on the charging circuit, and turn it off, when the voltage gets to high. Gotta be better than blowing up a battery.

 

I will check it tonight, and again tomorrow.

 

Right now the battery voltage is;

Tractor not running,  12.9

Tractor at idle,           12.9

Tractor at full throttle  13.7

 

Checked with my Fluke VOM.

Maybe my dash mounted volt meter is just goofy. It still shows 17+ volts at full throttle.

Firstly, the sound of that Briggs with the straight pipes made me think of a twin engine Cessna getting warmed up for takeoff. Nice sound, but I wouldn't want to be near it for an extended period

 

With these last measurements looking very normal, plus the pics of the sensible ammeter readings, I'd say it is the voltmeter in the tractor that is definitely goofy. This is not unusual at all because, to quote an earlier post, "these are not precision instruments". Last year had one that read consistently low-- it kept making me nervous that I was draining the battery, when I wasn't. Enough--new voltmeter and all calm.

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

Let's talk a bit about batteries...

 

First, www.batteryuniversity.com is an EXCELLENT resource for learning about all things battery and charging.  Well worth a visit or a dozen.

 

You can start at the beginning and read the plethora of articles but this is a good starting point:

 

https://batteryuniversity.com/article/bu-403-charging-lead-acid

 

A well charged battery should NEVER have a voltage much above let's just say 14.5 Volts when it is charging.

 

IF the voltage is higher it means that the INTERNAL RESISTANCE of the battery has increased and is on it's way out the door.  (OR you've got a VERY defective charging system dumping GOBS of current into the battery!)

 

A GOOD, NEW battery will tend to 'clamp' the voltage at some level.  As the system applies a charge to that battery, because it is 'clamping' the voltage, the CURRENT will increase.

 

A well designed and properly functioning charging system should NEVER continue to increase charging CURRENT after the battery has reached full charge.

 

In practice, the 'upper voltage limit' should be about 14.5 Volts approximately.

 

So Greg's 13.7 V at FULL THROTTLE is fine, but ONLY IF the regulator has decreased it's charging CURRENT to an appropriate level to 'float' the battery at that voltage rather than CHARGE it ...

 

 

Edited July 22, 2021 by Jeff-C175

[Gregor 4,846]

Voltage checked with Fluke connected directly to volt meter terminals.

Key on, tractor not running..12.8  Both meters agree

Tractor at idle   12.5 both meters agree

Tractor at full throttle, dash volt meter 17+......Fluke 16.7  

Still seems high. I'll have to see what the new VR does to it. 

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

5 minutes ago, Gregor said:

Tractor at full throttle, dash volt meter 17+......Fluke 16.7  

Still seems high. I'll have to see what the new VR does to it. 

 

That's interesting.

 

And IMHO, should not be.

 

If you're seeing 13.7 AT THE BATTERY, and 16.7 AT THE GAUGE it means that somewhere in your wiring you are dropping 3 Volts which is a bit excessive.

 

At what point in the system do you have the voltmeter connected?

 

Do you have a wiring diagram to share?

 

I wonder if you have it wired to the INPUT of the voltage regulator rather than to the OUTPUT ?

[Gregor 4,846]

The VR has plastic plugs. One plug with 2 wires coming from alternator, one plug with one wire going to ignition switch. Even I couldn't mess that up. Well, I don't think. Maybe tomorrow I will take it for another lengthy cruise. I will take a volt meter with  me, and check the battery voltage occasionally. If it get too high, I will disconnect the VR. That should tell me something, I think.

Edited July 22, 2021 by Gregor

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

46 minutes ago, Gregor said:

disconnect the VR

 

That may actually not be a good idea.  Some regulators can be destroyed if run without a battery load.  I don't know if the briggs is one but I would not risk it myself.

 

Take a voltage reading from the + terminal of the gauge  to the + terminal of the battery

You should see a reading equal to the difference between the battery voltage and the voltage at the gauge.

 

Then start tracing wires to see if you can find the point at which you are dropping that voltage.

 

If you don't see a difference on the + side, do the same thing on the - side.

 

Do you have a wiring diagram or no?

Edited July 23, 2021 by Jeff-C175

[Gregor 4,846]

1 minute ago, Jeff-C175 said:

 

That may actually not be a good idea.  Some regulators can be destroyed if run without a battery load.  I don't know if the briggs is one but I would not risk it myself.

Better than blowing up a battery. I'll buy a dozen vr's before I do that. I will disconnect the alternator feed if neseccary. That should protect the alternator, I hope.