417-8 Seized?

[Seth Powers 35]

Attached is a picture of my daughter enjoying the 417-8 just a few days ago. She loves driving that tractor! 

 

However, I am worried that I have ruined it.   I forgot to change the air filter thing from the winter to summer mode. My son was mowing the grass yesterday and it was pretty warm. He was mowing along and I came home, so he stopped. When we tried to start the engine again it would just click like the electrical was doing something (I could lift the deck up), but the engine wouldn't turn over at all. I tried it a couple of times to no avail. I took off the front left screen to see if that part would turn and it did but kind of hard. After that, my daughter tried turning it over and it turned over and then stopped - all electrical failed after that. I did change the 25 watt fuse, which was blown. I have no idea what a seized engine is like. The engine has plenty of oil.  Last night I tried jumping it with my Pilot (with the engine off) to no avail - couldn't get any electrical thing to do anything. When it has worked, it has been a marvelous tractor and I think it looks great. I was harrowing with it last week and it is just such a nice tractor. I know my terminology is vague and I apologize for that - we all have areas of expertise and small engine mechanical jargon is not mine. Any help will be appreciated as so many of you have been marvelous about other issues I have had. 

[ebinmaine 67,618]

Not having any experience with the newer tractors I doubt I'll be able to solve the issue but I'm going to chime in so I can follow along. 

 

To me when an engine is seized, it is completely unable to rotate.

 

If you can turn your engine by hand at all, I'd really be thinking it was an electrical issue.

 

 

[Seth Powers 35]

1 minute ago, ebinmaine said:

Not having any experience with the newer tractors I doubt I'll be able to solve the issue but I'm going to chime in so I can follow along. 

 

To me when an engine is seized, it is completely unable to rotate.

 

If you can turn your engine by hand at all, I'd really be thinking it was an electrical issue.

 

 

Eric, you are probably right and I hope so.  

 

[WHX?? 48,828]

3 minutes ago, Seth Powers said:

I forgot to change the air filter thing from the winter to summer mode

I don't think that is a big deal nor the root of your problem. Before we jump to conclusions about the motor being seized we need to get to the root of your electrical problem which it sounds like you definitely have. 

Have you got a wiring diagram for it? If not give us the model number off the tag and we will get you one. 

[ebinmaine 67,618]

You have a manual PTO on that tractor. Have you tried putting that in and out and in and out three or four times to verify that it is disengaged both physically and electrically?

 

 

Once that is disengaged physically you should be able to see the clutch disc separate from the engine. Not much.

 

At that point you should be able to turn the fan screen by hand.

[Seth Powers 35]

2 minutes ago, WHX24 said:

I don't think that is a big deal nor the root of your problem. Before we jump to conclusions about the motor being seized we need to get to the root of your electrical problem which it sounds like you definitely have. 

Have you got a wiring diagram for it? If not give us the model number off the tag and we will get you one. 

I believe I do. I have the printed manual for it. 

[Seth Powers 35]

4 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

You have a manual PTO on that tractor. Have you tried putting that in and out and in and out three or four times to verify that it is disengaged both physically and electrically?

 

 

Once that is disengaged physically you should be able to see the clutch disc separate from the engine. Not much.

 

At that point you should be able to turn the fan screen by hand.

Eric, I did, but I can look at it tonight to see if it is actually disengaged. 

[OutdoorEnvy 1,522]

Yeah I don't think the engine would seize after running fine and being shutoff unless it was really low or out of oil.  I think the PTO and electrical troubleshooting is on the right path

[Seth Powers 35]

Good! Thanks for the help. I'll try checking those things tonight - definitely blew a fuse so it being electrical makes sense. 

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 11,046]

If you do not have a row of idiot lights on the dash it is a 1985 model.

If you have a row of idiot lights on the dash it is a 1986 model.

They are wired different.

There is a short battery cable between the engine and the tractor frame. If it fails the starter will not work.

 

Garry

[Seth Powers 35]

11 minutes ago, gwest_ca said:

If you do not have a row of idiot lights on the dash it is a 1985 model.

If you have a row of idiot lights on the dash it is a 1986 model.

They are wired different.

There is a short battery cable between the engine and the tractor frame. If it fails the starter will not work.

 

Garry

It does have idiot lights. 

 

Seth

[c-series don 8,723]

I’d also pull the spark plugs while you are working on the electrical issue and squirt some Marvel Mystery Oil in the cylinders. Let it work it’s magic on the pistons,rings and cylinders. It’ll smoke a bit on start up but no harm will be done. I don’t think your engine is seized, I think the guys are correct and it’s probably an electrical issue. One thing is for certain, we will help you get it going again!! 

[WHX?? 48,828]

Yes start by checking all electrical connections and grounds. Need to find out why the fuse blew. Pay attention to wiring that may have rubbed through and shorted. 

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 11,046]

 

[Pullstart 62,912]

Can you explain the winter to summer thing on your air cleaner?  It should have a filtered source of air every season.  
 

You could also engage the PTO and use that pulley / belt to try to turn it over by hand.  Key in the off position, of course 

[Seth Powers 35]

Just now, pullstart said:

Can you explain the winter to summer thing on your air cleaner?  It should have a filtered source of air every season.  
 

You could also engage the PTO and use that pulley / belt to try to turn it over by hand.  Key in the off position, of course 

The air filter has a metal like exhaust thing on it that you rotate from going back into the engine in the winter to about 180 degrees (probably not quite but I am not looking at it) in the summer. Worried I might have overheated it. 

 

Seth

[c-series don 8,723]

That series 2 Kohler has the ability to switch it so the air cleaner can suck hot air off the engine for winter use. Or turn it 180 degrees to suck fresh air in the summer. 

[WHX?? 48,828]

4 minutes ago, pullstart said:

Can you explain the winter to summer thing on your air cleaner?  It should have a filtered source of air every season.

It does Kev... you are just supposed to rotate the cleaner cover ... a KT thing.... Series 1 too  Don beat me to it. 

Garry those colored wiring diagrams are endlessly helpful. We thank you greatly  for doing that... 

[OutdoorEnvy 1,522]

27 minutes ago, c-series don said:

That series 2 Kohler has the ability to switch it so the air cleaner can suck hot air off the engine for winter use. Or turn it 180 degrees to suck fresh air in the summer. 

 

I have never heard of this until now.  I have a K301s and was wondering if I need to do this and if you have pics of what I would be looking for on the setting.  Thanks for your help

[c-series don 8,723]

Your K-Series Kohler doesn’t have this option, so no worries! 

[Achto 27,604]

2 hours ago, Seth Powers said:

 Last night I tried jumping it with my Pilot (with the engine off) to no avail - couldn't get any electrical thing to do anything.

 

If you had the jump cables connected to the battery and still had no electric on the tractor any where. Then I would start by inspecting your tractor's battery cables. Check your positive and all of your negative cables. Remove them clean the terminals and the surface that the term mounts to. 

[ebinmaine 67,618]

Agreed. It's important to remember that these tractors use DC.

Direct Current.

 

If you don't have good grounds you don't have any kind of "direct." 

[peter lena 8,634]

agree with ebinmaine , and others above on the increased grounding , you might add a 4 ga cable from left rear engine mount to chassis , going to battery mount ground point , that has been add to my 3 horses and other areas like rectifier on the cooling shroud . instant starts , pete 

[peter lena 8,634]

added ground points,  1st and 5 th pictures , you are looking down at ground rail , last picture note cable coming from corner of engine block/frame , connecting those two , really helps , pete

 

[ebinmaine 67,618]

2 minutes ago, peter lena said:

added ground points,

@Seth Powers

That by itself could help a Lot.