701 transmission slips out of 3rd gear

[Shawn P 37]

I'm new to the horses. A fee weeks ago I inherited a family heirloom. A 61' 701. Originally owned by my grandfather. Passed on to my uncle then to me. Took me a couple evenings to get it running correctly but it is driveable.  This forum has been very helpful so far so I decided to join. My uncle explained that he had always had trouble with it slipping out of 3rd gear under load. So I decided to take it up the hill in the back yard tonight  and try it out. Sure enough chugging up the hill it popped out of gear and down the hill I went backwards. Thankfully no crash. He had tried to fix it years ago but had no luck and ended up creating a leak in the transmission upon putting it back together.  Any idea on what to look for when I get this thing apart? Also I'm guessing gaskets for this are not available..... Anyone know thickness of the gasket between the two halves? Last question where to find axle seals? Thanks in advance for your time.

[Wellingtontx 69]

Welcome. 

 

There are some true transmission experts on here that will help you out - unfortunately I am not one of them. 

 

I am working on my own transmission rebuild.  I cannot wait until I can drive my WH.

[oliver2-44 9,760]

@Shawn P

Welcome. The 701 is a very collectible hard to find horse. It is the first WH with the engine in the front. We love it when we hear of horses staying in the family. 
  
when these trannys pop out of 3rd gear. The cluster gear and 3rd gear teeth are typically worn round on the edge. This is a common old age problem caused by people shifting before coming to a complete stop. These are not synchronized transmissions.   

  One of our vendors (just google) Wheelhorse Parts and More has bearings gaskets and seals and new 2 and 3rd gears. Also in the Vendor Section you will find A-z tractor who has lots of WH used parts. The same cluster gear and 2,3rd gear were used for many many years.  In the Instructional Section you will find a video on overhauling you transmission by our Transmission Guru Stevasarus. 
 

To overhaul your transmission you will first have to accomplish 2 of the 3 Wheelhorse rites of passage 1 Removing the typically frozen rear hitch pin.  Typ lots of penetrating oil. Then if needed, Since your going into the transmission using heat (torch rosebud) will be ok. 

2 Removing wheel hubs.   If your axle seals have been leaking it just might help them come off. Gain lots of penetrating oil over several days. The cast hubs are fragile and easily broken using a standard 3 legged puller. You a bearing splitter to go behind the hub flange and puller.  Search for Hub Puller on here and you will find several good homemade ones.

Lots of friendly help here so don’t be shy about asking questions

Edited May 12, 2021 by oliver2-44

[rjg854 11,387]

  Oliver, has pretty much covered the bases.  Good luck with your rebuild.

[SylvanLakeWH 25,600]

[The Tuul Crib 7,336]

T😎

 

[Achto 27,604]

  Great looking 701 !! 

 

As stated 3rd gear is known for going out from people trying to shift on the fly. These gears are no longer available from the factory but luckily Lowell has taken it upon himself to reproduce them. Here is a link for you.

 

https://wheelhorsepartsandmore.com/product/3523-3rd-gear/

 

Here is a link to his transmission kits. This kit includes all the basic gaskets, seals and bearings required to rebuild your transmission.

 

https://wheelhorsepartsandmore.com/product/base-kit-1-for-manual-transmission/

 

The #1533 differential carrier bearings are not included in the basic kit as they are not usually an issue. If you find that these bearings are bad on your tranny, here is a link to the basic kit with the 1533's included. Note: 1533 bearings are only available thanks to Lowell choosing to reproduce them.

 

https://wheelhorsepartsandmore.com/product/kit-1-with-2-1533-bearings-for-manual-transmission/

Edited May 12, 2021 by Achto

[Racinbob 11,093]

Dan and Jim have you all fixed up. One more thing. Before you tear the transmission apart do this test. Put it in third and you'll feel the detents holding it there. Then check the input shaft for any in/out play. Most will be fine but if there's any at all it equates to the 3523 gear disengaging from the input gear that amount. You can use an arbor shim to eliminate the play. Just slip it on to the input shaft before you put it in the case. Here's a comparison of a brand new 3523 and one that's got some wear. The worn one isn't all that bad in this case and was in an 854 that was slipping out of third. It had a fair amount of in/out play so I shimmed the shaft and decided to reuse the original gear. Problem solved. You can get away with more if your tractor is just a showpiece but my 854 is a worker and I push dirt with it. After the shim it hasn't slipped out of third since. 

 

 

Oh wait! One more one more thing. You have a 5007 transmission and it has the 35xx shift rails. This isn't critical but if you latched on to the later 56xx rails and stop pin. It does a lot to prevent locking up between gears. What you have is on the right. The revised rails ore on the left. I would send you some buy I always do swap and all I have left are the old style. 

 

 

[oliver2-44 9,760]

Achto and Racinbob add some very good points. Regarding the shift rails, if you can’t find a set of them you can modify the old ones. The modification is just grinding a flat on the back side of the rail. I’ll see if I can find a picture to show you what we’re talking about 

[Racinbob 11,093]

26 minutes ago, oliver2-44 said:

Achto and Racinbob add some very good points. Regarding the shift rails, if you can’t find a set of them you can modify the old ones. The modification is just grinding a flat on the back side of the rail. I’ll see if I can find a picture to show you what we’re talking about 

 

 Yup, you can do that. The first 56xx rails just had the neutral (center) detent milled deeper like the one on the left.

 

 

You can also grind a flat the length of the rail to help stop the 'suction' effect. Remember, just swapping the old rails for the newer style won't do a thing unless you swap the original 11/16" stop pin for a 3/4" pin. 

[WHX?? 48,828]

What the guys are talking about when they say a grind a flat spot  on the rails. 

[WHX?? 48,828]

10 hours ago, oliver2-44 said:

. These are not scrutinized  transmissions.

Jim's spell checker went hay wire he meant synchronized. 

Regarding Lowell's he will just sell the individual bearings as required. I like to take it apart before ordering to see what I will all need. Helps keep the cost down 

Edited May 12, 2021 by WHX24

[oliver2-44 9,760]

Thanks WHX24. I fixed it

Edited May 12, 2021 by oliver2-44

[Shawn P 37]

Wow! Thank you all so much. I am impressed to say the least. I'm gonna try to get this thing tore apart by the weekend.  I'll let you all know what I find and if I can't figure it out. Just thought I would share my find on the back side of the belt cover. Grandpa signed his name for someone to find.  He passed away in 72. 10 years before I was born. 

[Achto 27,604]

That has to be left in tact for sure.

 

@stevasaurus has some great Youtube videos on rebuilding transmissions. This transmission is the same as yours.

 

Edited May 12, 2021 by stevasaurus

[stevasaurus 22,764]

And this one has some videos.  This is very close to yours...I explain the difference.

   BTW, I'm betting your cluster gear is just fine.  It is the 2nd / 3rd fork gear you want to replace if shims don't work.  It is the inside of the gear that you need to look at...when in 3rd gear that fork gear sits on top of the input gear, it does not inter change with the cluster gear when in 3rd gear.  It inter-changes with the pinion gear under the cluster gear in 3rd.  

[Pullstart 62,912]

  Nice family ride you’ve got there!

 

As for the hitch pin, if it’s seized up... heat and spin what you can get a pipe wrench on, don’t try to hit it with a hammer or punch to drive it through. What the hammer does is mushroom that shaft out and make it even harder to remove.

[Achto 27,604]

2 hours ago, Achto said:

This transmission is the same as yours.

 

I see what you did there @stevasaurus.  Sneaky !! But thanks man.

[stevasaurus 22,764]

My pleasure Dan.  and thanks for being so understanding.  I do have the threads for 3, 4, 6 & 8 speed transmissions, plus the 3 piece.  Got the Wheel Horse transmissions covered Mate.  BTW, picked up another Wheel Horse Bourbon yesterday.  

[Mike in NC 341]

Nice Horse!  I just got a Model 701 myself. And WELCOME!!!!

[Shawn P 37]

Good afternoon fellas. Rainy Sunday in St. Louis means perfect opportunity to do some wrenching. Got it tore apart. There appears to be some worn down teeth on 2nd and 3rd as well as the cluster and one other. Everything came apart almost too easily. The hitch pin had been replaced before and the original was replaced by one that was sloppy in the hole so it was no problem.  And hubs came right off due to leaky seals. Time to check on some parts. I did find a couple parts floating around inside (see 4th picture). A pin and a single ball bearing. I'm guessing the ball is from a previous rebuild. The big bearings have 12 balls in each and are in tact. The the pin I'm not so sure about where it came from. Too large and flat on the ends so it's not a needle bearing.  

[stevasaurus 22,764]

OK...the 1st picture is your cluster gear, and it is not too bad.  Understand, the tooth damage happens from shifting gears without coming to a complete stop.  That gear is fine if you come to complete stop before shifting.

   The 2nd picture is your reverse idler and that gear is excellent.

   The 3rd picture is your 2nd and 3rd fork gear.  You can see all the teeth are worn on the inside of that gear.  That needs to be replaced.  Wheelhorse Parts and More can do that.

   The 4th picture is of the détente ball (one of them) and the stop that goes in the spring between the 2 balls.  I would pull your shift rails and see what that other guy did.  As long as you got it torn down, this is something you want to take a good look at.  

[Shawn P 37]

Well. After watching videos. Found out what the extra parts were. Guess I probably should have checked them before tearing apart. 

[Shawn P 37]

Found the 2nd detent ball too

[Shawn P 37]

So I'm not finding the cluster gear anywhere. Is this guy available anywhere that you guys know of. Would like to replace if possible.  

Stevasaurus the reverse idler looks pretty worn on the one end. You said it's excellent.  Guessing this is normal and will not affect operation?