Water Heater Question (Electrical/Plumbing)

[squonk 41,155]

I'm not up the umbers for hardness. Did they recommend a softner? If you don't have scale issues presently I don't see why not.

[squonk 41,155]

Just googled it. Extremely hard water. You may need to descale twice a year. Easy job as long as bypass valves to attach a pump are installed with the heater. Takes about an hour.

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

31 minutes ago, squonk said:

Did they recommend a softner?

 

Of course they did!  They're SALESMEN!

 

"17" is a somewhat meaningless number.  Was that " GRAINS PER GALLON " or " PPM "

 

@roadapples

 

Quote

Grains per gallon is a measure of water hardness. One grain per gallon (gpg) is equivalent to 17.14 parts per million (ppm). A water hardness of 0 to 3 gpg is soft water, 3 to 7 gpg is moderately hard and 7 to 11 gpg is considered hard. Anything more than 11 is considered very hard.

 

If it was PPM, 17 is about ONE GPG, and very soft, no treatment required.

 

If it was GPG, that's almost 300 PPM and is EXTREMELY hard.  If your water is that hard, you would have scaling all over the place.  Stalagmites growing off of any dripping faucet.  Brownish white deposits in the terlet where the water drains from the holes around the rim and a brownish white 'crud' around the perimeter of your water faucets, water spots on your glassware, inability to make 'suds' with soap.  In other words, you wouldn't need a test to know your water was hard!

 

 

Edited April 30, 2021 by Jeff-C175

[squonk 41,155]

https://homewater101.com/hard-water-numbers

[formariz 11,987]

I never had the water tested here but I know for a fact that there is virtually no hardness to speak of here. The water heater has been in service for close to 30 years now and has never been descaled. It works as it did when it was first installed. Same with my expresso machine. Never been descaled and never had a problem. 

[formariz 11,987]

One thing that is important in using these heaters is your water pressure. If you have low or fluctuating pressure it’s a problem. They have a safety feature that shuts them off if pressure drops below a certain level. You also need to open the tap substantially otherwise they will shut off. Mine is close to 30 years old so perhaps the new ones are already a little different. All minor details one has to get used to since they work on totally different principles than a regular water heater. I would never consider another type of heater if I had to replace this one.

[squonk 41,155]

They work off of flow by the use of a flowmeter. Soon as water flow it comes on. Takes a minute to get crankin. wish I tested my water when I had access to the hardness test kit at work. We needed soft water for the boilers. I don't have any scale issues either but I descale it because it's easy and cheap maintenance. House smells like vinegar for a couple of hours. No biggie. just go to the Olive Garden and eat salad! 

[Pullstart 62,912]

2 hours ago, Jeff-C175 said:

Basically, the only difference between the 6, 9, and 12 year warranties is the number of anode rods in the tank. 

Where I used to work, (and yes, where Mrs. P still does @WHX24) it was just the label on the jacket.  They were all built to the same quality standard, with one anode (residential units).  Commercial units, they had multiple anodes, powered anode options, etc.  

 

1 hour ago, roadapples said:

Had my water checked for hardness. They said it was 17. Never had a water softener. Could I get by with a tankles heater if it was flushed with vinegar once a year.. @formariz  @squonk thanks 

No matter what (and I’m sure I’ll raise a few hairs), I’d never recommend a tankless.  Though Bradford White carries those as well, tank type over tankless any day .  

 

Mr. Jay, if you decide to look into tankless, consider the possibility of requiring a repipe of your gas line and proprietary vent pipe in many applications.

[Pullstart 62,912]

2 hours ago, Jeff-C175 said:

Basically, the only difference between the 6, 9, and 12 year warranties is the number of anode rods in the tank. 

Where I used to work, (and yes, where Mrs. P still does @WHX24) it was just the label on the jacket.  They were all built to the same quality standard, with one anode (residential units).  Commercial units, they had multiple anodes, powered anode options, etc.  

 

1 hour ago, roadapples said:

Had my water checked for hardness. They said it was 17. Never had a water softener. Could I get by with a tankles heater if it was flushed with vinegar once a year.. @formariz  @squonk thanks 

No matter what (and I’m sure I’ll raise a few hairs), I’d never recommend a tankless.  Though Bradford White carries those as well, tank type over tankless any day .  

 

Mr. Jay, if you decide to look into tankless, consider the possibility of requiring a repipe of your gas line and proprietary vent pipe in many applications.

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

43 minutes ago, pullstart said:

just the label on the jacket

 

Wow... so you're paying for the warranty only?  I 'dissected' one years ago that had the 12 year and it had two anodes.  I guess the folks at 'waterheaterrescue.com' are also mistaken about that.

 

The 2 rods that I found in my lab project were one in the normal place, and one on the hot outlet, the 'combination' rod thing a ma jigger.  I believe it also had the heat trap in it.

[ebinmaine 67,624]

3 hours ago, Jeff-C175 said:

225'

225 you lightweight

 

My well is something ridiculous like 680 ft deep. 

 

Now to really put that into proper scale imagine this. The lowest lying water table in my area is the Ossipee River which sits maybe 250 ft below me about a mile away... and I'm over 400 ft below THAT before I got decent water off the mountain side...

[Pullstart 62,912]

7 minutes ago, Jeff-C175 said:

Wow... so you're paying for the warranty only? 

Yup.

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

21 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

225 you lightweight

 

  one of the few times I'm happy to live in Joisey and not have to drill through a thousand feet of rock to get good water!  The strata here is mostly ancient sea bed.  Thirty feet brought up 'greensand'.  about 60 feet some chunks of CHARCOAL belched out.  I don't understand how that's possible.   from about 80 to about 120 feet bits of sea shell started coming out along with 'beach sand'.  After that, fine grayish sand for the most part.

 

21 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

Ossipee River

 

Now I need to look at a map.  As kids we used to summer for a couple weeks in Center Ossipee NH.  Loved that time!  Walking down from the cabin at dawn... diving into crystal clear Dan Hole Pond.  Fog on the water.  Good old days, not a care in the world!

 

WOW!  I was only 20 miles away from your homestead way back in the 60's !

 

Edited April 30, 2021 by Jeff-C175

[ebinmaine 67,624]

4 minutes ago, Jeff-C175 said:

homestead

Stop on up sometime.

I'll boil up some cowboy coffee...

 

That's about all I can offer other than a generally surly attitude. BBT takes care of the rest.

 

 

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

4 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

generally surly attitude

 

Wouldn't be the first time I was greeted by the business end of a 12 ga! 

[ebinmaine 67,624]

3 minutes ago, Jeff-C175 said:

 

Wouldn't be the first time I was greeted by the business end of a 12 ga! 

Well I wouldn't really go that far for two reasons.

 

I ONLY have a 20 gauge.

 

I also have a BBT and let's not forget what that stands for... 

[WHX?? 48,828]

1 hour ago, pullstart said:

, I’d never recommend a tankless

I'd have to agree Kev. When they work they work good but when they don't lookout. Wicked hard to wrench on and out of warranty parts $$. Again warranty only as good as the paper it's written on. Maker will always be quick to blame problems on yer water quality and you failed to de-lime it every other week.. Technology on them changes by the day so tomorrow yours will be obsolete. 

Gimme a naturally aspirated one in LP or natural any day. Even power venters are questionable but ok for what they are.

Didn't know you used to work at BW Kev. They have the best IMHO and i used them all at one point.

Whatsa Plunge got to say about things? @JCM

[squonk 41,155]

My tankless has already out lasted any std. tank heater we've had before 2 times over. I have spare flame sensor, igniter and blower on the shelf for less than a Franklin. Gained lots of room in the basement. Unlimited hot water when I want it. 

[formariz 11,987]

2 hours ago, squonk said:

My tankless has already out lasted any std. tank heater we've had before 2 times over. I have spare flame sensor, igniter and blower on the shelf for less than a Franklin. Gained lots of room in the basement. Unlimited hot water when I want it. 

Close to 30 years for mine without a single worry. I now expect it to outlast me. One can also change temperature at will in a second ( great when you need to pluck the chickens). As far as space gained I will start another thread about that.

Edited May 1, 2021 by formariz

[wh500special 2,187]

On 4/30/2021 at 8:06 AM, rmaynard said:

Well ain't this a fine kettle of fish? ...and with both leads under water, why didn't the breaker trip?

 

Scratching my head. 

Believe it or not, water is not conductive for electricity.  It’s the stuff that gets dissolved in water that makes it conductive.  
 

Apparently in that puddle there isn’t enough “stuff” dissolved in the water to conduct enough current to trip the breaker. 
 

it’s possible that it wouldn’t have tripped a GFCI either. 
 

Normally you’d expect there to be enough salts and minerals to make it conductive but apparently not in your case. 
 

I wonder if the water you see there is from condensation from somewhere?   Maybe evaporated water from a lower leak condensed on the bottom of the enclosure lid?  Or maybe condensation from a pipe above slowly dripped and filled the bowl?

 

either of those would effectively be distilled/deionized water and would be non conductive.  Also highly corrosive.  
 

good luck.  Glad you weren’t hurt. 
 

steve

[wh500special 2,187]

On 4/30/2021 at 2:54 PM, pullstart said:

No matter what (and I’m sure I’ll raise a few hairs), I’d never recommend a tankless.  Though Bradford White carries those as well, tank type over tankless any day .  

 

So, since nobody else asked I guess I will:

 

Why?

 

Steve

[Pullstart 62,912]

4 hours ago, wh500special said:

So, since nobody else asked I guess I will:

 

Why?

 

Steve

It seems @squonk and @formariz have success stories that are unusual to me... but for the most part, cost of ownership is generally higher in the long run.  
 

Installation cost (especially to retrofit) is generally 3-5 times higher than a tank type.  One very often forgotten aspect of installing one (180k-199k btu) is usually replacing 40k btu.  When gas pipe in a house is sized for a 80k-150k btu furnace and a 40k btu water heater, then a demand overall nearly doubles, the 1/2” pipe doesn’t have enough throughout to keep all appliances happy with enough gas pressure.  Like sizing a panel for electrical load, every possible appliance used should be on high fire to tune everything into it’s optimum CO2 output for combustion efficiency (yeah Uncle Jim, a few years R&D, a few years Tech Support, a few years service part, some time training plungers on site...).  As mentioned above, many types also have proprietary venting, also adding to extra cost.  
 

Cold water sandwich is a piping byproduct of tankless water heaters and leads to extra water down the drain.  When washing stuff, doing dishes, etc. it’s not uncommon to have water turn on and off regularly.  In a tank type water heater, the water coming out of the outlet 30 seconds to a minute after it’s sitting off, you don’t notice a temp change at the faucet.  With tankless, it has to sense a minimum water flow, then go through a safety check, purge the blower, firing sequence, etc. before the hot water flows again.  You have two options.  Deal with the cold water sandwich, or keep the faucet running and dump hot water when not needed.

For the most part, housing in America is much larger than necessary.  We can afford the space.  In Europe, they seriously don’t have room for large tanks.  I understand that.  We typically have plenty of room in housing design.  
 

If you need a gas valve, blower, etc. for your tank type water heater, you can usually find one in town.  If you need a tankless part, you’re next day airing it in, or waiting until it arrives.  I realize hot water is a luxury.  Many people cannot go a day without.

 

[formariz 11,987]

As far as pipe size requirements and specs you may have something there which however I cannot comment on since it is out of my expertise. However all black gas pipe in my house and others that I am familiar with here is 3/4" so that problem would not be so critical here. As for space that is not so true everywhere. If one has a basement perhaps so but if you do not, as it is in my case then that heater is located in the laundry room which most time around here happens to also work as a mud room and also contains the heating unit.. Then not only does that heater take valuable space but in addition to that creates an unsightly mess with all the exposed plumbing. But taking all of that aside the mere fact that it is really in the living space when it does rupture the damage it creates is many time catastrophic. It happened to me while on vacation and water ran for a week before someone found it. That alone is enough for me not to ever want a tank heater again. I do understand that water flow needs to be high for heater to activate but it has never been a concern here. As for the cold water sandwich I am not sure how that happens. Once hot and one shuts water off and on as you mention it, I still get the same temperature water as long as it was not off for a prolonged period. Hot water system is separate from the cold. Its only a minor inconvenience if one does not open water sufficiently for heater to activate. Then the system fills with cold water and one has to wait for that to flush out. Perhaps since we do not have wells we also are not so conscious about water usage ( although all should be).

Now, taking all the above aside and one has a couple of teenagers taking showers before we do, then one really gets to appreciate these heaters. There are quite a few around here that I know of and as far as I know no one has ever had a problem with one. They seem to be pretty reliable. Speaking about efficiency that was the first benefit that I noticed. Gas consumption was definitely noticeable. Particularly so when on vacation. Except for the heater pilot there was no consumption at all. Pilot on stove has always been electric.

[squonk 41,155]

Basement here is only partial. With the space saved there is room to store flower pots. Vent piping is minimal at my house. I have a low ceiling in the basement. Getting correct draft for a lowboy tank was difficult without out power vent. My gas lines be are 3/4. I can run heater,dryer and furnace all at the same time with no issues. Gas savings alone have paid for the cost of venting. Spare parts I have on the shelf ( haven't needed any yet) or are 40 miles away at Johnstone Supply. When my son was home 2 showers a day. With a Phillips screwdriver and 2 sockets I can pull the hear exchanger out and clean it in an hour.  

[Racinbob 11,093]

This has been an interesting read. Over the years I have researched the tankless water heaters and considered one but when it came down to it I opted for a power vent tank model. I just installed a new one this past December. Several factors came in to play here. Kevin hit on a lot of very valid points but, unless I missed it, the gas meter size wasn't mentioned. Around here most of the residential meters are 250 cf/h. From what I see most tankless demand water heaters are around 150-160 cf/h. Simple math quickly told me that I would more than max it out and I would need a larger one installed. The vast majority of people that have whole house natural gas generators installed have to do just that. Some gas companies may not charge for doing it but, again, around here, they do. At a cost of what a quality gas tank heater costs. Then check out the multitude of charts for the flow capacity of the iron pipe there would likely have to be some changes too. With just the two of us living here the payback just isn't there for us. That being said, with the guys that are pro tankless know their stuff and I value their opinions. You can't argue with their first hand experience. That's what made this such an interesting read. Guys with differing opinions hashing it out in a manner that provides some excellent information for anybody that might be in the need for a new water heater.