Water Heater Question (Electrical/Plumbing)

[rmaynard 15,514]

Well ain't this a fine kettle of fish? Getting ready to leave for Florida tomorrow and I suddenly have a water heater problem. I went to the basement yesterday to check the automatic timer on the water heater so I could set it for vacation. When I laid my hand on top of the electrical cover of the heater it burned me. That's not normal says I. So I removed the screw that holds the cover and heard sizzling. What I found was this.

 

 

This image was taken after I had pulled the wires out of the water. One lead had corroded so bad that as soon as I touched the wire nut the wire broke.

 

Now bear in mind that I have not had any hot water issues, and the circuit breaker never tripped. I cannot find the source of the water as both the incoming cold and outgoing hot pipes are dry at their connections to the top of the heater. I cannot get to the relief valve due to the foam insulation.

 

So I trimmed back the insulation and put on new wire nuts, cleaned the water out, turned the breaker back on and everything has been fine for the last 12 hours. The water has not returned.

 

Of course I am not leaving it this way. Will kill the breaker while away, and will replace the water heater upon my return, but that still leaves the unanswered question of where did the water come from, and with both leads under water, why didn't the breaker trip?

 

Scratching my head. 

Edited April 30, 2021 by rmaynard

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

43 minutes ago, rmaynard said:

Will kill the breaker while away, and will replace the water heater upon my return

 

You better shut the water off too!  Don't wanna come home to a flood!

 

Sometimes they start leaking S L O W L Y internally and the water fills between the tank and the jacket.  When they used to use the fiberglas insulation, the water would run to the bottom.  The foam insulation often stops that and you don't know you have a leak for a LONG time, like you did.

 

Consider a GFCI circuit breaker in your panel.  They're $$$ but it would have tripped with that fault.

 

[ACman 7,618]

Why the breaker didn’t trip  I’m with you. Have you pulled one of those plastic caps next to the box to see if the insulation is wet under there.just like Jeff said. 

Edited April 30, 2021 by ACman

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

2 minutes ago, ACman said:

Why the breaker didn’t trip 

 

Not enough current leakage to trip a 30A breaker.  The GFCI would have tripped though.

 

GFCI for many areas may be 'code' now BTW.  It is in my area.

But 'grandfathered'.  If you pull a permit for new WH, you have to also pull electrical to change the breaker.

"Permits?  We don't need no steeenking permits!"  

 

[SPINJIM 1,981]

It seems to take 2 weeks to get a plumber scheduled anyway (at least in my area, & this time of year), so call them now.

Ain't home ownership great?    Turn off everything, and enjoy your trip anyway.

  Jim

 

[ACman 7,618]

Thanks for the info Jeff . I haven’t messed with a water heater since my accident 10 years ago . Back then a gas power vent w/h wouldn’t work if it was plugged into a gfci plug or extension cord but that’s  . Bob I’d also pry that box up and see what’s underneath. I don’t see condensation doing it , 

Edited April 30, 2021 by ACman

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

2 minutes ago, ACman said:

Back then a gas power vent w/h wouldn’t work if it was plugged into a gfci plug or extension cord 

 

Only a LITTLE off topic!    I'd have to check, but AFAIK the codes in my jurisdiction only say GFCI for electric heaters.  But I don't mess with gas anyway so I dunno!

 

Not sure why it would trip a GFCI though, in THEORY it should not. 

[Pullstart 62,912]

The picture isn’t loading for me, but I agree with @Jeff-C175 that today’s foam is poured in, sometimes to a bag that precisely spills the foam mixture around between the jacket, at just a perfect shot time to completely fill the void from the bottom to the top.  With that said, sometimes a leak below the wet spot works it’s way up and out instead of running down the previously “wool” wrapped tank.   Last I knew, they have figured ways to seal the jacket holes around the drain valve, t-stat access holes, etc that they don’t need the plastic any longer.

[rmaynard 15,514]

33 minutes ago, ACman said:

Why the breaker didn’t trip  I’m with you. Have you pulled one of those plastic caps next to the box to see if the insulation is wet under there.just like Jeff said. 

It's foam insulation, but no I have not. Don't have time to do that with less than 18 hours before I go away. The water heater has a lifetime warranty that I bought at the time of purchase, 4/12/2011. I am now fighting with them as they say that they have no proof of my heater having the warranty. I even showed them the paperwork, but you know how that goes, just like any insurance company they will try to find a way to weasel out of paying.

[squonk 41,155]

I can't see the image. but it didn't trip the breaker because the short to ground wasn't enough to create enough amperage to trip. A GFCI trips on leakage to ground in millivolts so yes a GFCI would trip

 

Reason why a power vent model would trip GFCI is electric motors and GFCI's don't play nice together. You will get many nuisance trips.

[rmaynard 15,514]

33 minutes ago, Jeff-C175 said:

 

Not enough current leakage to trip a 30A breaker.  The GFCI would have tripped though.

 

GFCI for many areas may be 'code' now BTW.  It is in my area.

But 'grandfathered'.  If you pull a permit for new WH, you have to also pull electrical to change the breaker.

"Permits?  We don't need no steeenking permits!"  

 

 

I don't pull a permit to replace a water heater, and I sure don't pull a permit to change a breaker.  

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

1 minute ago, rmaynard said:

 

I don't pull a permit to replace a water heater, and I sure don't pull a permit to change a breaker.  

 

Join the 'club'!

[rmaynard 15,514]

15 minutes ago, SPINJIM said:

It seems to take 2 weeks to get a plumber scheduled anyway (at least in my area, & this time of year), so call them now.

Ain't home ownership great?    Turn off everything, and enjoy your trip anyway.

  Jim

 

In the 43 years that I have been in this house, this is only the third water heater that I've had. I don't need a plumber. I am a do-it-yourself kind of guy.

 

...and after having a pipe break while I was away for the day, if I go away these days I always turn off the pump and close the main valve.

Edited April 30, 2021 by rmaynard

[rmaynard 15,514]

12 minutes ago, pullstart said:

The picture isn’t loading for me

Should be there now.

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

2 minutes ago, rmaynard said:

43 years

 

2 minutes ago, rmaynard said:

the third water heater

 

We've been here about 35 years and as I recall I'm on my 4th one.  The first was here already on 'day one' and started leaking about 6 years later.  It was old when I moved in.  The second was a piece of crap that started leaking after about 8 years. The 3rd one I changed (last year) wasn't leaking yet but was like 20 years old!  About ten years on in it's life I changed out the anode rod which was GONE.  I think changing that anode added another 10 years to it's life.

 

2 minutes ago, rmaynard said:

I am a do-it-yourself kind of guy.

 

I think most of us here sorta fall into that category.  I do it all.  Well... except for asphalt paving the driveway... and roofing.

 

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

12 minutes ago, rmaynard said:

third water heater

 

How old is that one?  and what brand?

[ACman 7,618]

...

 

If you don’t have ball valves already I’d be changing them out to while you’re at it . If you have a problem with the water not stop coming and can’t get it to take solder into the joint you can stuff some bread into the pipe to give you enough time to get it done . Old timer plumber taught me that trick and saved my but many times . 

[Pullstart 62,912]

14 minutes ago, rmaynard said:

The water heater has a lifetime warranty

No matter the manufacturer, that’s a proud item.  Where I used to work, they had stainless steel tanks that had a lifetime coverage, but no components held that, if I recall.  
 

2 minutes ago, Jeff-C175 said:

About ten years on in it's life I changed out the anode rod which was GONE.

Suggestions from the manufacturer are to inspect the anode after the first 2 years, then use that as a guide.  Water quality continues to degrade across the map, water softeners and other systems create neutral water that I believe creates aggressive water that can eat anodes even quicker.  Having the plumbing system as the primary ground fault circuit by design, a loose neutral or ground in a panel can create a stray voltage that makes this situation even worse, which is why many inlets and outlets are bonded by a strap as well.  Many people chose to “upgrade” to an aluminum or aluminum alloy (A-420) anode that is simply a closer molecular structure to steel and less willing to be sacrificial like magnesium.

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

2 minutes ago, ACman said:

stuff some bread into the pipe

 

Have you seen them new age gadgets that freeze the pipe?  Too spendy for homeowners once in a while use, but a neat idea.

 

[Pullstart 62,912]

4 minutes ago, ACman said:

If you have a problem with the water not stop coming and can’t get it to take solder into the joint you can stuff some bread into the pipe to give you enough time to get it done . Old timer plumber taught me that trick and saved my but many times . 

somewhere Mrs. P showed me a video, this big brawny dude shoved enough bread into a pvc pipe while running his garden hose through, that it stopped flow long enough to prime and glue the joint before it blew the soggy mush through!

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

3 minutes ago, pullstart said:

“upgrade” to an aluminum or aluminum alloy

 

My well water is softened and I'm sure somewhat aggressive.  The hot water was always 'stinky' too.  I did switch to the aluminum at ten years and the stink went away for the most part.  When I pulled that rod after I changed the heater there was still quite a lot left after 10 years.  

 

On this new heater I thought I would try a 'powered anode' from CORRO-PROTEC.  Which I'm not sure if it's any REAL advantage but I notice that major manufacturers are now offering powered anodes as an option.  The 'impressed current' anodic protection is well proven in the industry (ships and pipelines) so it's not 'smoke and mirrors' but may not be any real advantage.  I wanted to try it anyway.

 

[ACman 7,618]

Also tap a gate valve when shutting it to loosen up all the crud up inside so the valve will completely close . 

[rmaynard 15,514]

15 minutes ago, Jeff-C175 said:

 

How old is that one?  and what brand?

10 years. GE

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

2 minutes ago, ACman said:

gate valve

 

Gate valves are from the Devil !  I can't tell you how many have been gorilla tightened by someone and then when they are opened the stem breaks out of the top of the gate because the gate gets wedged into the valve.  And then nothing to do but change the valve.  AND, they never really close all the way anyhow.  I hate hate hate them!

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

2 minutes ago, rmaynard said:

10 years. GE

 

That's a good run then.  It was time!

 

Did that insurance policy come from GE?