Starter Trouble

[WheelHorse520H 708]

Hi,

I am new to Red Square so if I am not in the correct place I apologize. I have a 1988 520-H that I recently got running and one of the things I did was put in a new starter. This starter has always been grinding a little, but lately it has been getting worse. Sometimes the teeth do not mesh and the pinion on the starter gets stuck on the teeth on the flywheel. Any ideas on what would be causing this, I was thinking the starter solenoid is too weak. I guess that is what you get with a cheap import starter. Thank you in advance for your help,

Andrew

P.S. the teeth on the starter pinion and the flywheel both seem to be in excellent condition.

[Roger R 448]

Do what it takes to rebuild / repair the original starter.  I did the same thing with the same results.  Fortunately was able to restore the original and reinstall before the import ruined my fly wheel.  Beware the inexpensive imports!!!  

Edited April 24, 2021 by Roger R

[roadapples 6,983]

A to Z may have a good used one...

[WheelHorse520H 708]

9 hours ago, Roger R said:

Do what it takes to rebuild / repair the original starter.  I did the same thing with the same results.  Fortunately was able to restore the original and reinstall before the import ruined my fly wheel.  Beware the inexpensive imports!!!  

Thank you for the idea, I tried that but had to stop when one of the bolts broke in the top shield, not sure hot to remove it, I don’t want to drill it out and damage the threads. I am going to use the new one for parts for the old one, from now on I will only buy OEM starters. I will try again soon thank you.

[rjg854 11,387]

  @WheelHorse520H  I'm sure others will be along that can help.  That's not a model I'm familiar with.

[lynnmor 7,308]

20 minutes ago, WheelHorse520H said:

Thank you for the idea, I tried that but had to stop when one of the bolts broke in the top shield, not sure hot to remove it, I don’t want to drill it out and damage the threads. I am going to use the new one for parts for the old one, from now on I will only buy OEM starters. I will try again soon thank you.

 

Apply penetrating oil to all fasteners several times a day for a couple of weeks if you want to work on an abused Onan.  I don't know which bolt you broke, a photo is worth a thousand words.

 

Your Chinese parts may not fit the OEM starter and may carry the same problem with it.

[WheelHorse520H 708]

It is the one that goes through the starter and holds it all together, I checked and I can use the bolts and the solenoid from the new one, that’s about it the new one is a gear reduction whereas the old one just has a shaft to the pinion.

[WheelHorse520H 708]

So I took the flywheel shroud off to start putting in the old better quality starter and notice the new one shave and shined some of the teeth are they still ok? All of these are from different parts of the flywheel.

[WheelHorse520H 708]

Thank you all for the help, after a lot of work my cobbled together old/new starter it has not been grinding yet, but battery is dead so I will let you all know how it goes later.

Thanks again,

Andrew

[WheelHorse520H 708]

Thank you all for your help my 520 starts now with no grinding and it actually sounds like a starter should.

[WheelHorse520H 708]

Ok so I don’t know what else is going wrong, it started grinding again, but it’s a different sound. Would a low battery state of charge cause the starter to not engage fully? I have been having an issue with the voltage regulator not charging the battery.
Thanks again,

Andrew

[kpinnc 12,091]

3 hours ago, WheelHorse520H said:

Ok so I don’t know what else is going wrong, it started grinding again, but it’s a different sound. Would a low battery state of charge cause the starter to not engage fully?

Yes, or a bad solenoid. Corroded battery terminals/ cables or weak connection of any kind to the battery or ground can do it. The last P220 I had similar issues with had a grimy solenoid. 

[WheelHorse520H 708]

17 hours ago, kpinnc said:

Yes, or a bad solenoid

Which solenoid? I have the solenoid on the starter and the one on the frame that acts as a relay, now that you mention it, I did see some minor corrosion on the one on the frame.

[kpinnc 12,091]

There should only be one solenoid- the one "piggyback" on the starter itself. 

Edited May 12, 2021 by kpinnc

[pacer 3,173]

I had followed this thread earlier, but had sorta forgot about it as it had appeared you had solved the problem.......

 

But.... with the post 're-incarnated' and skimming it I was quickly struck with one thing that was never mentioned - and, of which I just today was addressing, a starter problem.

 

First off I am NOT familiar with the 500 series horses, so this may, or may not be a factor.

 

I have Mitsubishi D1650 which is a smallish Grey market tractor and the starter solenoid failed a few days back and while searching for one was finding dozens of them all appearing like mine. Pretty quickly a couple of the ads noted the teeth count of their particular starter -- stating being 13 teeth. So, I'm thinking, hmmmm, maybe I better ck my teeth count, and doggone if mine had FIFTEEN teeth! and I didnt recall seeing this. Most ads would not note tooth count, but after going thru about a hundred ads, one finally gave a lengthy description of their item with several pictures and noting that it had FIFTEEN teeth!! I ordered it and just installed it and woks like a charm.

 

Now, what this is all leading up to ... early on in your post your description of what it was doing sounds like the teeth wernt meshing! Could there maybe be a different tooth count on these starters and maybe you got one that didnt mesh???

 

Note: The starter I ordered was a new one, but obviously an import and as said it worked perfectly.

[WheelHorse520H 708]

@kpinnc attached is a pic of the relay-solenoid, in the background you can see the starter with the “piggyback”, which as you know engages the starter, the one in the foreground of the photo closes a contact for two wires to make the starter turn. Often times if this fails you can take an insulated screwdriver and cross the connections to turn the starter. @pacer I put the old starter back together with only a few pieces from the new one, the gears were slightly different so I went back to the OEM one. However I think the new import might have shaved some teeth on the ring gear just a smidge to short. The import also seemed to jam up a lot as seen in the filling picture.

I appreciate the help and hope we can get to the bottom of this,

Andrew

P.S. I see in the first photo the 30 amp fuse is missing. I have it installed, for some reason it falls out if it is not in just right.

Edited May 12, 2021 by WheelHorse520H

[pacer 3,173]

So, is the gear shown in the pix from the original starter? Maybe the angle of the pix, but they sure dont appear to mesh, and they are gnarley! In the last pix is that with the solonoid engaged? If so, then they REALLY dont appear to mesh!

 

Heh, danged if that starter dont look a whole lot like the one I just put on the Mitsu!!

Edited May 12, 2021 by pacer

[lynnmor 7,308]

Only the early models with Onan engines had a separate starter relay.  You either have cheap Chinese parts or the mounting bolts or bolt holes are knackered, those teeth should mesh better.  You simply cannot use the cheap starters, buy new or good used.

[lynnmor 7,308]

2 hours ago, pacer said:

 

Heh, danged if that starter dont look a whole lot like the one I just put on the Mitsu!!

 Onan used Mitsubishi starters.

[WheelHorse520H 708]

21 hours ago, pacer said:

 

So, is the gear shown in the pix from the original starter? Maybe the angle of the pix, but they sure dont appear to mesh, and they are gnarley! In the last pix is that with the solonoid engaged? If so, then they REALLY dont appear to mesh!

 

Uhh so that was the cheapo import, and not the angle, the did not mesh.... like at all. The solenoid was disengaged, battery disconnected, it was stuck like that when I took the flywheel cover off. That’s why I went back to the original starter, but I have a broken bolt in the silver cover that goes over the pinion so I am using the import until I can get it out.

 

18 hours ago, lynnmor said:

Only the early models with Onan engines had a separate starter relay. 

This is a 1988, it came from the factory with the second solenoid, later models they changed to a real relay because the engineers at Toro realized it worked better.

 

18 hours ago, lynnmor said:

You either have cheap Chinese parts or the mounting bolts or bolt holes are knackered,

I checked the Amazon seller’s suppliers on their website, and they were all from China. The mounting bolts appear okay, I took them out recently to repair the starter, like I said I am going to rebuild the original, it worked better no doubt.

 

18 hours ago, lynnmor said:

21 hours ago, pacer said:

Heh, danged if that starter dont look a whole lot like the one I just put on the Mitsu!!

 Onan used Mitsubishi starters.

Yes, the one that came off of this tractor was a Mitsubishi.

Thank you all for the help,

Andrew

[WheelHorse520H 708]

I still have not gotten the broken bolt out, it is in a bad spot to twist out with vice grips, and I don’t want to drill it out because I am worried about damaging the threads. It has been soaking in SeaFoam Deep Creep for about 2 months and it won’t budge. The guy at O’Reilly’s said the Deep Creep was the best thing besides Kroil. I am out of ideas, and don’t have the money to buy an new OEM $300 starter.

Thanks for the help.

[Handy Don 12,237]

1 hour ago, WheelHorse520H said:

I still have not gotten the broken bolt out, it is in a bad spot to twist out with vice grips, and I don’t want to drill it out because I am worried about damaging the threads. It has been soaking in SeaFoam Deep Creep for about 2 months and it won’t budge. The guy at O’Reilly’s said the Deep Creep was the best thing besides Kroil. I am out of ideas, and don’t have the money to buy an new OEM $300 starter.

Thanks for the help.

If that bolt HAS to come out, it'll take patience and care and probably ultimately have to be drilled to take an extractor.

The top of the stub will have to be made flat. A good clean center punch and then drilling with a pilot hole and then larger with the part clamped solidly on a drill press. Once the hole is through and large enough, fill it with penetrant and let it soak for a week or more (an occasional heating/cooling cycle with a heat gun to 600 or so degrees might accelerate the penetration). Then thread in the extractor per the tool's guidance.

[lynnmor 7,308]

I see there is a starter cone on the bay for $23.89 and free shipping.

[WheelHorse520H 708]

35 minutes ago, Handy Don said:

If that bolt HAS to come out, it'll take patience and care and probably ultimately have to be drilled to take an extractor.

The top of the stub will have to be made flat. A good clean center punch and then drilling with a pilot hole and then larger with the part clamped solidly on a drill press. Once the hole is through and large enough, fill it with penetrant and let it soak for a week or more (an occasional heating/cooling cycle with a heat gun to 600 or so degrees might accelerate the penetration). Then thread in the extractor per the tool's guidance.

I might try this on a rainy day, the only problem is, I don’t have a drill press. I am guess a regular drill/driver will not work.

 

19 minutes ago, lynnmor said:

I see there is a starter cone on the bay for $23.89 and free shipping.

Thanks for the suggestion, I realized after I posted that I could buy a new cone but I didn’t research it yet. I will shop around later but that is not a bad deal, I just wonder if it actually fits or if it came off something else. Like I said I’ll shop around.

Thank you both for your quick responses I really appreciate it.

[Handy Don 12,237]

2 hours ago, WheelHorse520H said:

I might try this on a rainy day, the only problem is, I don’t have a drill press. I am guess a regular drill/driver will not work.

 

Drill press helps you keep the drill going in straight. It is possible to do freehand with a regular drill, and I'm sure many people can. I have too often broken bits or not followed the centerline of the bolt so I look for mechanical aids!