really stumped any + all suggestions welcomed

[Tonyp 284]

Toro WH  315-8   electric PTO  .Kohler 15 command Pro.   Started right up after 2 months of non use.   After cutting MOST of the lawn yesterday, over an hr or so, the blades shut down. Drove the tractor over to the garage area to  check it out, Shut it of.

 

Now  it  won't turn over . The OIL Light comes on, nothing on the Volt meter.    I checked all the safety switches this morning , all ok. I don't know how to check the electric PTO switch though. 

 

Heres what I think I know....   

 

I disconnected the battery and jumped another battery, its started and even  the PTO  worked. When I disconnected thejuimped battery the engine died, I think that is normal with the Kohler Command Pro 15. 

 

NEXT, I cleaned  the battery connections and terminals, they were actually clean, reinstalled the battery.  It would not turn over so I jumped the other battery to the installed battery. 

 

 It turned over , started and ran, even the electric PTO  worked for the deck   , so I removed the JUMPED battery, 

 

The engine remained running but the PTO no longer operated. The Voltmeter is fluctuating between 12 and 14 . The battery on its own is measuring 10 VDC, the others are  just under 13. 

 

I'm going to INSTALL the jumped battery  to see if this repeats to rule out the battery or to blame the battery.,    

 

How do I test the Electric PTO Switch     ?  This is now highly suspect.   I'm going to pull it.   

 

 Thoughts ? 

 

more to come 

[WHX?? 48,828]

What year/model tractor? Will get you a wiring diagram. 

10 volts is too low so yes install a good known battery. you want to have a good 13 volts with a charged battery. 

The PTO switch is just an on off switch but may be also wired to fuses, kill relays or seat switches 

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

Your symptoms are pointing to a bad battery.  I don't believe there's a problem with the PTO, save your time, don't make work for yourself.  Change the battery

 

[Tonyp 284]

THX !   You  guys are great  but its baffling as the 2004 -315-8 started no problem yesterday and ran for well over  an hr before the issue arrived. I have all the wiring diagrams as well. I don' t understand how the battery could have failed so quickly, unless it was on the  verge, 

 

Does the battery charge while running from the Kohler electrical system ?  How does the charging system operate ?  IF the battery cannot be charged and it drops in voltage, is that what caused the issue ?  The system cannot operate under 12 or 13 VDC ? 

 

I did purchase a brand new battery yesterday for WH #3, but before I installed it in the 315-8 ( problem child) , I took the 315 Battery and put it in #3.   Nothing, no turn over, nada.

 

I then installed the NEW battery purchased yesterday ( 13.8 VDC)  into the 315-8, started right up and the PTO worked like a charm 

 

Ok bad battery, for certain.  Is it possible that the 315-8 electrical system killed the battery while running for an hr or so, or is it just coincidence or dumb luck ?   

 

Much appreciated. Headed back  out to buy yet another battery      

 

 

 

 

Edited March 12, 2021 by Tonyp

[squonk 41,155]

How old is this battery. A plate could have broken inside and it will kill a battery in minutes.

[WHX?? 48,828]

If the battery is 4-5 years old it don't owe you anything. Especially the cheap wally world ones.  I have had batteries put up for the winter and on maintainers but took a crap when spring came around. Yes 5 years old as I or the farm store I get them from engraves the sell date on them. 

Edited March 12, 2021 by WHX24

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 11,047]

 

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

 

30 minutes ago, squonk said:

A plate could have broken inside

 

 

 

Happens a lot.  Went to start my car last summer... DEAD.  Happened overnight with no warning.

Battery was "only" eight years old! 

 

And as a point of interest,  a battery with a bad cell (broken internal connection) will read SOME voltage.  But put a load on it and it drops to ZERO immediately.

 

Edited March 12, 2021 by Jeff-C175

[WHX?? 48,828]

yep the best 20 bucks I have spent at HF. 

[Pullstart 62,912]

Sounds like these fellas got you covered!  Battery’s not taking charge 

[squonk 41,155]

2 minutes ago, WHX24 said:

yep the best 20 bucks I have spent at HF. 

With a big Group 8D battery you can make toast! 

[Tonyp 284]

Battery is at least 5 years old, I suspect closer to 8 or 9.  I  looked for a date on it but   couldn't  find it.   The battery  I bought yesterday replaced a real cheap one. Didn't last 24 months , wouldn't hold a charge.

 

I was looking for a much bigger problem , a broken plate makes sense. It all happened WAY too quickly. , minutes. That's why it didn't make any sense to me.   

 

Appreciate the quick replies. 

 

tp

[Handy Don 12,237]

Once you have a good battery in there, be sure to check that it is getting charged. A tractor will run for maybe an hour on a battery even if it isn't being charged.

Just sayin' it could still be a bigger problem! 

[Wheel Horse 3D 3,795]

Depending on your battery type, Wet. dry, sealed etc. If its an unsealed battery you can individually check the cells to verify if they're shorted and of each cell is putting out roughly the same voltage. If you even have specifics on a sealed battery sometimes you can guesstimate if its likely a shorted cell.(If you have a 6 cell batt and one cell is shorted you'll end up with 10v at full charge)

[Tonyp 284]

1 hour ago, Handy Don said:

Once you have a good battery in there, be sure to check that it is getting charged. A tractor will run for maybe an hour on a battery even if it isn't being charged.

Just sayin' it could still be a bigger problem! 

  Good point,will be sure to  check it. 

 

   I didn't see a regulator on the wiring diagram  how is  the battery being charged ?  Is it internal to the Kohler Command Pro 15 ?  This is a 2004 Toro WH 315-8. 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 12, 2021 by Tonyp

[stevasaurus 22,764]

What may very well have happened.  It started, you used it and then no start.  The old batter was OK when you started it, but while driving it around, it stirred up the junk inside, some may have fallen off the plates, and it shorted out at least one of the cells.  If there is enough junk on the bottom of the battery to reach one or more of the plates...that will do what you experienced.  

[Handy Don 12,237]

1 hour ago, Tonyp said:

   I didn't see a regulator on the wiring diagram  how is  the battery being charged ?  Is it internal to the Kohler Command Pro 15 ?  This is a 2004 Toro WH 315-8. 

 

 

There is a rectifier. It is noted in the diagram near the ignition switch (at the end of the violet wire from one side of the stator). Often they are encased in shrink tube or tape. That changes the engine's AC output to DC. Within the ignition switch the R (rectifier) and B (battery) terminals are connected while the switch is in the RUN position. The B terminal's red wire goes to the battery, charging it. The engine's output is engineered to be ok for battery charging without a regulator and there is a fuse (F2) to protect things in case the engine's output gets too energetic or something in the tractor put too much load on it (extra lights?)

Edited March 12, 2021 by Handy Don

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 11,047]

This model should have a 15 amp charging system and a voltage regulator in the engine's flywheel blower housing to keep it cool. Look for a 3-wire connector going to the regulator - the little square box with the purple and 2 AC stator wires going to it in the wiring diagram.

 

Garry

[Tonyp 284]

THX all  ! 

 

good stuff

 

tp

[Handy Don 12,237]

1 hour ago, gwest_ca said:

This model should have a 15 amp charging system and a voltage regulator in the engine's flywheel blower housing to keep it cool. Look for a 3-wire connector going to the regulator - the little square box with the purple and 2 AC stator wires going to it in the wiring diagram.

 

Garry

Thanks for correcting my, Garry. I didn't read the diagram carefully enough.

 

[Tonyp 284]

BIG THX, I see it now on the WD.  

Edited March 13, 2021 by Tonyp
new info

[Tonyp 284]

Appareatly these are maybe $12/$15  replacements.  OFF BRAND 

Is this a common item to fail ?  In all of my WH years, well over 40, I've  never had one fail. Never even thought about it. 

 

 Is there any particular reason to NOT get  an off brand replacement rather than a $60 WH  part ?  I'm thinking of just getting one for the parts box.    

 

Do they absolutely need to be air cooled ?

 

thx again

 

tp

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 11,047]

2 hours ago, Tonyp said:

Appareatly these are maybe $12/$15  replacements.  OFF BRAND 

Is this a common item to fail ?  In all of my WH years, well over 40, I've  never had one fail. Never even thought about it. 

 

 Is there any particular reason to NOT get  an off brand replacement rather than a $60 WH  part ?  I'm thinking of just getting one for the parts box.    

 

Do they absolutely need to be air cooled ?

 

thx again

 

tp

Toro is generally very proud of their parts. After market should work.

The early electronic units are not cooled by fan air but are also 20x bigger. These large ones should be mounted with the terminals down so the heat from the power transistor can naturally rise away from it.

The body of both styles must be grounded to work which is done by the mounting screws.

Garry

[Tonyp 284]

ALL is well, for certain it was the battery that was stumping me. The 315-8 ran for a couple of hours today, no issues, 14 V on the meter.

 

I purchased a  300 CCA battery from  Tractor Supply, $45.     As fate would have it, the battery died in my 1979  C81 a day or two later, it wouldn't hold a charge , so back to Tractor Supply I want a day or two later  for yet another battery. I've run both of these tractors for several years, bought them used of course, never changed batteries, I'm not complaining . 

 

Big thx to all for chiming in !  

Edited March 26, 2021 by Tonyp

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

13 minutes ago, Tonyp said:

As fate would have it,

 

Funny how that works.  I got a new battery for the 175.  The NEXT DAY the battery in wife's car took a dump, and when I went to start the Honda the following day, the voltmeter dipped WAY down and the radio presets weren't there any more. 

 

Three batteries in three days.  The guys at the store were laughing at me.  After the third one they said; "See ya tomorrow!"