Hot start, she doesn’t

[krystolo 504]

Hello friends,

 

Any top tips for diagnosing a non-starter?

 

Will give a couple of turn overs, then nothing. No clicking, no buzzing, just dead. 
I changed the battery, but I fear this is something more sinister. 
 

Also, I’d there supposed to be an air filter here? 🤔
 

1977 C160

[Pullstart 62,912]

Do you have a volt meter?  Tracing the power along for basic troubleshooting will be the best way to diagnose the issue.  There are safety switches on the PTO and seat, most likely.  Sometimes the clutch pedal has one as well.

[Pullstart 62,912]

Yes, you need an air filter base, filter and prefilter and a cover.

[krystolo 504]

36 minutes ago, pullstart said:

Do you have a volt meter?  Tracing the power along for basic troubleshooting will be the best way to diagnose the issue.  There are safety switches on the PTO and seat, most likely.  Sometimes the clutch pedal has one as well.

I do have one! Need to run home and get it. 

[953 nut 55,321]

Call Lincoln at A-Z Tractor parts for an air cleaner assembly.   

The starting problem may very well be a lack of upkeep by the previous owner. Take each electrical connector including grounds off, clean it and be sure it is tight when going back on. It doesn't take much corrosion on a terminal to give you a problem.

[krystolo 504]

So, I may have made a grievous mistake.  I'm admitting it here, hoping that no one will notify the media that I was such a dummy.  Here goes...

 

I left the switch for the headlights on the first night I got her.  The lights don't work, so I didn't realize I had left them on. 

The next day, the battery was dead, so I jumped it from my car.  It worked, and I continued to use the jumper cables while I was waiting to buy the new battery.

All was well, except that one time.  The PO painted her, and the overspray coated the negative battery cable RED.  I hooked the cables up backwards.   There was some sparking, but I realized my mistake quickly and took off the clamp.

 

I installed the new battery yesterday, and she started right up.  I did about an hour of work, then put her away.  I don't recall if I tried to start her hot yesterday, but don't remember any issues with starting.

 

Today, she started fine, but after about 90 min of pretty hard work (with no air filter... terrible tractor mom, here), would not turn over.  It's like it gives me a little try once or twice, and then nothing.  I wait 30 min and another couple little tries, but no start.

 

Have I destroyed something? Break it to me gently, folks.

 

[krystolo 504]

22 minutes ago, 953 nut said:

Call Lincoln at A-Z Tractor parts for an air cleaner assembly.   

The starting problem may very well be a lack of upkeep by the previous owner. Take each electrical connector including grounds off, clean it and be sure it is tight when going back on. It doesn't take much corrosion on a terminal to give you a problem.

 

Might need to recheck my connections from when I changed the battery.  Maybe the ground came loose.

 

[953 nut 55,321]

3 minutes ago, krystolo said:

I may have made a grievous mistake.  I'm admitting it here, hoping that no one will notify the media that I was such a dummy.

Too late, CNN has bugged my computer and they are already headed your way!          

Heat and vibration tend to aggravate corroded connections.           Take your time and do a thorough cleaning of all terminals or Murphy's Law  will kick in at the worst possible time and place.

 

[oldlineman 1,481]

If it has been ran without a filter a long while may have low compression do to dirt in cylinder just a thought. 

[krystolo 504]

11 hours ago, oldlineman said:

If it has been ran without a filter a long while may have low compression do to dirt in cylinder just a thought. 

I was worried about that...

[krystolo 504]

OK, so I poked around on the electrics, and one of the wires to the regulator rectifier is shot.  Kinda melted and burned. Perhaps this explains the dead batteries.

 

Also, I cleaned the carburetor with some spray stuff, and now it won't start even with a jump.  It will turn over and over, but not start.  I'm so impatient to learn how to take care of her, but I sure am hitting my limits.

[Tuneup 1,433]

If you don't have a multimeter, find a Harbor Freight and get one on the real cheap. They're perfectly fine. Turn it to DCV and test it by connecting across the battery, looking for 12.5 or so volts. Turn the key to RUN, and connect the + lead to the coil + wire (that comes from the tractor, not the one that goes to the engine). Touch the other lead, always, to the battery (-). You should have 12V at the coil. No chance for spark, otherwise. If 12V is NOT there, you can run a short lead directly from the battery (+) to the coil to test. If it IS there, you can check that the points operate by connecting the meter + lead to the other coil terminal and hand rotate the engine. You should see an alternating 12V and 0V reading - points closing and opening. If all checks out, bad coil or bad plug or bad plug lead and possible bad grounding.

 

These are old machines and wiring becomes brittle. It fried at your regulator for that reason. Probably more to find. Sorry, if I sound like I'm teaching above. I don't know your level of knowledge of these tools so had to assume the base. Good luck!

[krystolo 504]

2 hours ago, Tuneup said:

If you don't have a multimeter, find a Harbor Freight and get one on the real cheap. They're perfectly fine. Turn it to DCV and test it by connecting across the battery, looking for 12.5 or so volts. Turn the key to RUN, and connect the + lead to the coil + wire (that comes from the tractor, not the one that goes to the engine). Touch the other lead, always, to the battery (-). You should have 12V at the coil. No chance for spark, otherwise. If 12V is NOT there, you can run a short lead directly from the battery (+) to the coil to test. If it IS there, you can check that the points operate by connecting the meter + lead to the other coil terminal and hand rotate the engine. You should see an alternating 12V and 0V reading - points closing and opening. If all checks out, bad coil or bad plug or bad plug lead and possible bad grounding.

 

These are old machines and wiring becomes brittle. It fried at your regulator for that reason. Probably more to find. Sorry, if I sound like I'm teaching above. I don't know your level of knowledge of these tools so had to assume the base. Good luck!

Thank you so much! I’m definitely a newbie to engines and most things mechanical, but ready to learn. 
here’s the multimeter I have.

I bought new wires and will work on getting them upgraded. Looks like some of them have already been replaced, but others are definitely old and stiff. 

[krystolo 504]

Temporary air filter? 😂😂😂

[krystolo 504]

On 3/14/2021 at 8:36 AM, Tuneup said:

If you don't have a multimeter, find a Harbor Freight and get one on the real cheap. They're perfectly fine. Turn it to DCV and test it by connecting across the battery, looking for 12.5 or so volts. Turn the key to RUN, and connect the + lead to the coil + wire (that comes from the tractor, not the one that goes to the engine). Touch the other lead, always, to the battery (-). You should have 12V at the coil. No chance for spark, otherwise. If 12V is NOT there, you can run a short lead directly from the battery (+) to the coil to test. If it IS there, you can check that the points operate by connecting the meter + lead to the other coil terminal and hand rotate the engine. You should see an alternating 12V and 0V reading - points closing and opening. If all checks out, bad coil or bad plug or bad plug lead and possible bad grounding.

 

These are old machines and wiring becomes brittle. It fried at your regulator for that reason. Probably more to find. Sorry, if I sound like I'm teaching above. I don't know your level of knowledge of these tools so had to assume the base. Good luck!

 

I tested a lot of the wiring, and found that there is power to the coil and to the power to the points, and it will start with a jump.  However, when I turn the key nothing happens, or just a little crank, then nothing.

 

There seems to be power to the ignition switch, and the headlight comes on.

 

I'm struggling to figure out the wires coming out of the engine to the regulator.  They are both red, and I'm not sure which is positive/negative.  Need to check voltage there, too.

 

Funny thing is that I think the fuse is blown on my multimeter, so had to get a second multimeter to test the fuse.  LOL

 

Put a little pause in my work, but I managed to get some diagnostics done...

 

Thanks again for all of your help!

 

Oh! The spark plug was quite charred.  Sanded it off and it helped.  Anyone know what plug I need, off hand?

[953 nut 55,321]

9 hours ago, krystolo said:

I tested a lot of the wiring, and found that there is power to the coil and to the power to the points, and it will start with a jump.  However, when I turn the key nothing happens, or just a little crank, then nothing.

Probably time to clean and tighten all electrical connections including grounds. ANY bad connection can cause a problem so clean them all.

There seems to be power to the ignition switch, and the headlight comes on.

I'm struggling to figure out the wires coming out of the engine to the regulator.  They are both red, and I'm not sure which is positive/negative.  Need to check voltage there, too.

The two wires coming from your engine produce AC voltage in the range of 24 to 36 Volts Alternating Current depending on engine RPMs.

Funny thing is that I think the fuse is blown on my multimeter, so had to get a second multimeter to test the fuse.  LOL

 

Put a little pause in my work, but I managed to get some diagnostics done...

 

Thanks again for all of your help!

 

Oh! The spark plug was quite charred.  Sanded it off and it helped.  Anyone know what plug I need, off hand?

Champion H-10C

 

[krystolo 504]

@953 nut So it doesn’t matter which wire coming from the engine goes to which connector on the rectifier? 
 

thank you for your help!

 

This process is fun and frustrating at the same time. Such a steep learning curve. 

[Tuneup 1,433]

No matter - it's just a matter of AC phase and the regulator doesn't care. Just be sure to connect its battery terminal properly.

 

As Richard said, you'll be chasing electrical gremlins forever unless you at least assure that the grounds are clean. So, there is power to the coil and the engine can be jumped - great. The ignition switch is powering the coil. The starting circuit provides power to the solenoid switch which separates the starter from battery start power. Connect the DMM to the small terminal on the solenoid and the other to the battery (-). Turn the key to Start. You should see 12V. If not, key switch or power to that switch - wiring or interrupt switches. To test the solenoid, touch a lead from the battery (+) to the solenoid small terminal. You should hear a loud click and the engine should attempt to start. If not, bad solenoid. There is an assumption that the solenoid is well grounded as well. If click but no starter turning, weak battery or bad battery leads or still bad solenoid or even starter.

Those switches are cheap and common. Battery leads of various lengths are at auto parts stores but I always check Wally World first as auto stores are a rip-off. I paid $10 for good marine grade grease last weekend. If it clicks and starts, your starter circuit - ignition switch, bypass switches and/or wiring is suspect.

Edited March 16, 2021 by Tuneup

[953 nut 55,321]

17 minutes ago, krystolo said:

doesn’t matter which wire coming from the engine goes to which connector on the rectifier? 

The two AC wires go to the outboard terminals marked AC, The third (center terminal) will go to the "R" terminal of the ignition switch. 

[Handy Don 12,237]

1 hour ago, krystolo said:

@953 nut 

 

This process is fun and frustrating at the same time. Such a steep learning curve. 

True words.

Learning does take work, doesn't it? But so satisfying when you know you've got the skill mastered! 

[krystolo 504]

All the horses in the barn!