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Zant2540

Tractor shovel

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Zant2540
28 minutes ago, Handy Don said:

I'm looking to get at least 12" of vertical motion for the bucket (2" below grade to 10" above) so am being a bit creative here.

This definitely needs more thought, but what about some kind of lift linkage that works like an old high lift jack?  You could make one stroke to lift it half way and then a second stroke to lift to the top.  

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WVHillbilly520H
35 minutes ago, Handy Don said:

I have.

 

A couple factors are in play here.  The single-stage blowers are much lighter, they don't lift much (if any) higher because, well, lifting a snow blower more than 4-5" is usually not worth much.

 

And, there is the decrease in leverage plus the limits of the rod's throw. The lever arm is the perpendicular distance from the push rod to the front attach pivot point--the higher the lift the shorter that distance becomes. As the lever arm shortens, the force needed increases. Plus, there is a limit as the pushrod fore and aft throw is a bit less than 5" when connected to the usual rockshaft mounting hole.

 

I'm looking to get at least 12" of vertical motion for the bucket (2" below grade to 10" above) so am being a bit creative here.

I have owned and use both of these snow blowers on my 520 and with the single stage I am pretty sure it lifted 2-3" higher (and dropped more as well) than the 2stage as its moves in an arc vs the compound linkage that moves more or less in a linear fashion much like the lift on my eMax blade/blower frame, but then you would loose the angle from seat feature unless using flexible cable/pulleys system? I am in the group of keeping it as simple as possible with the same end results, but i would like to follow along and see what you are envisioning here.

20210110_161146_HDR.jpg

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WVHillbilly520H
54 minutes ago, Zant2540 said:

@WVHillbilly520H I did consider single stage mount, the same as the Johnny bucket.  But I was thinking the dozer blade design would be better because of two things.  1) every video I've seen of Johnny bucket operation or even the tractor shovel video I posted at the beginning of the thread seems to require driving with momentum into piles to load.  2) the plow angle lever gives an option for operating the clam shell.

The only drawback from this is the very limited lift height without somehow hinging the blade to allow it to picot back towards the tractor? at the main attaching pin through the angle quadrant.

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Zant2540

@WVHillbilly520H that is very true about the limited lift height.  I only need to go as high as the dozer blade lifts, sometimes not even that high.  I would mainly use it for mulch and gravel, but I do have one project in mind for top soil.  I have one spot at my place where I would need max blade lift height.

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WVHillbilly520H
4 minutes ago, Zant2540 said:

@WVHillbilly520H that is very true about the limited lift height.  I only need to go as high as the dozer blade lifts, sometimes not even that high.  I would mainly use it for mulch and gravel, but I do have one project in mind for top soil.  I have one spot at my place where I would need max blade lift height.

There is a way to get more lift height, by adding spacers between the axle and the rear attach bracket.

20200123_171021.jpg

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Handy Don
1 hour ago, WVHillbilly520H said:

I have owned and use both of these snow blowers on my 520 and with the single stage I am pretty sure it lifted 2-3" higher (and dropped more as well) than the 2stage as its moves in an arc vs the compound linkage that moves more or less in a linear fashion much like the lift on my eMax blade/blower frame, but then you would loose the angle from seat feature unless using flexible cable/pulleys system? I am in the group of keeping it as simple as possible with the same end results, but i would like to follow along and see what you are envisioning here.

20210110_161146_HDR.jpg

 

42 minutes ago, WVHillbilly520H said:

There is a way to get more lift height, by adding spacers between the axle and the rear attach bracket.

20200123_171021.jpg

 

There are lots of alternatives, each with its own pros and cons.  

 

Cannot say for sure as I don't have one to measure, but I doubt the lift range of the single stage blower is as great as you remember. The geometry just isn't there.

 

The linear lift is useful and I have one in my design for holding the flail mower. For the much heavier scoop, it puts the load well out in front of the tractor and is a challenge for positioning the stronger hydraulic, mechanical, or linear actuator it needs (Johnny Bucket puts the lift actuator under the tractor only inches above the ground). This linear lift also needs some sort of subframe support -- in my case the mid-hitch is adequate for the flail but I'm still doing the math for the scoop forces. 

 

Yes, the plowframe pivot can be lowered to give more height in front but at the cost of reduced clearance in the rear. No big deal when plowing snow. Maybe a big deal when doing landscaping on rough ground (one of my use cases). On a WH, the front axle and steering linkages are not very high and ultimately limit vertical movement anyway.

 

In all cases, keep in mind that you also want to maintain clearance to open the hood while the implement is attached.

 

When you get into creating a way to use nonWH implement(s), as I have, you begin to realize how thoroughly engineered these tractors are. They are rugged and constructed using sound manufacturing techniques and (for the most part) high quality components so they last a long time and are readily repaired and maintained. They maintained a price point by not having many unused capabilities, meaning they are not engineered to have a great deal of excess capacity in any area. They do the jobs they were designed for extremely well with some margin for error. Coaxing them outside their "comfort zone" causes complications quickly.

 

Three point hitch? Dual-bottom moldboard plow? Power steering? Separate strong hydraulic pump with controls and plumbing? Dual rear braking? Nope, nope, nope, nope, and nope. All those were available during our tractors' production era but all were left to larger tractors outside WH's target market. Trying to make a WH do them is always a bit of a hack and the compromises that make one solution satisfactory for one user may be unacceptable for others (look at how we debate the different sizes of mowers! :)). By the time you add more than one of these features to a WH, you might just as well buy a higher tier JD or Mahendra and get them out of the box.

 

Ok, getting down off my soapbox now and going off to resume my design work and other chores.

 

Thanks for reading!

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WVHillbilly520H

@WHX24, Jim do you still have your snow blowers hitched up single and deuce? If so could you do "us" a favor and measure full lifted height from flat ground/shop floor to "cutting" edge and let us know 1) are the same or different and buy how much and a maybe a side shot of them both in fully raised position? If not that's fine I was trying to see how much of anymore the single raised vs the duece, I have a single but its stuffed away in WV so I really can't do this anytime soon.

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ebinmaine
44 minutes ago, Handy Don said:

keep in mind that you also want to maintain clearance to open the hood while the implement is attached

I'm not at all familiar with the newer models that you folks use. Our older horses could utilize a solid eight or ten-inch long front pin and be able to lift the hood straight up by removing that pin and undoing the rear clasp.

 

 

Trina and I were shooting the breeze about this because as I stated earlier we've been mulling over building a front scoop for several years. 

 

We were talking about the capabilities of different people being able to lift different loads and what the front capacity could potentially turn into at the arm lift area. 

She questioned whether a mechanism could be made up using levers and fulcrums or perhaps pulleys to increase the available load capacity.

 

She then jokingly suggested that we could come up with a Rube Goldberg device of some sort which would allow us to insert a marble somewhere, let a bunch of mechanisms do their thing, and be able to lift the plow lever with one finger. 

 

 

 

Another thing that occurred to me a few minutes ago is I was wondering if the op of this thread had caught the forklift creation build by @BeninCT

 

Perhaps a combination of technologies or a modification there in would give somebody the increased lift distance that is desired?

 

 

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Handy Don
1 hour ago, ebinmaine said:

caught the forklift creation

Absolutely did and followed it closely.

Nice workmanship and good design (he doth protest his welding skills too much). I might have substituted cheapie garage door rollers for the nifty ones he used :lol:

Clearly a win because it suited his expected use cases with aplomb.

Drawbacks for me are: a) that the "tower" blocks the hood opening -- my users will not be interested in getting to and unclipping the hinge pin to remove it and definitely not for replacing it (though @ebinmaine's comment leading to the idea that an alternate hood fastening/removal method might be a reasonable part of a scoop project) and b) it relies on gravity for the "down" motion.

Edited by Handy Don
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BeninCT

I made a new hood pin that must be removed but the hood tilts enough as is to check the oil (slight bend in dipstick req’d). 


Will put that back on the tractor at the end of the month I think as we should be done with snow by then and I can then see how useful it is. So far I know it will lift a lot of weight but I am a little nervous that the fork tower doesnt tilt front/back like a real forklift because that is critical to the final placement of loads and picking up items on uneven ground.  Most of what I will do will be on pallets so shouldn’t be an issue but could be for someone else.

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Handy Don
21 hours ago, Zant2540 said:

This definitely needs more thought, but what about some kind of lift linkage that works like an old high lift jack?  You could make one stroke to lift it half way and then a second stroke to lift to the top.  

Funny you mention this. That idea came up in a brainstorming session I was having with my son.

 

The fundamental constraint is force over distance. The WH hydraulic cylinder can push/pull about 700 lbs. over a 3" throw on a 4.5" rockshaft arm (the arm is hidden behind the left cover panel). With the proper linkages, then, it can lift 350 lbs about 6" (or 175 lbs the whole 12") in one throw. So you are correct that to get to my 12" goal it'd seem to need only two "ratchet" steps!

 

I haven't been able to figure out a "simple user friendly" (yeah, no comma in there--read it both ways) mechanism to handle both up and down, though. It has to be strong enough to hold 350+ lbs and have an "up" mode and a "down" mode. On "down", though, the car jack needed a short "lift" to let the ratchet cog pop out and then you could lower it until the cog engaged the next lower notch and then you had to run the lever to the opposite end to reset the cog spring for the next lower step. Building that in means sacrificing some of the max lift range per ratchet step, so then maybe 5" or even 4.5 per step and so I need more steps!

 

Another idea that came out of this was a scissor jack linkage with a suitable geared electric motor turning the screw. Too complicated.

 

Hey, if this was easy someone would have already done it!

 

You did bring back memories, though, of many an hour with a bumper jack changing tires for summer/winter. Thanks!

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ebinmaine
44 minutes ago, Handy Don said:

"simple user friendly" (yeah, no comma in there--read it both ways)

:ROTF:

 

 

Hey!

HEY!!

 

I resemble that remark. 

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DennisThornton

Good info! @Handy Don Saved away.

 

WH hydraulic cylinder can push/pull about 700 lbs. over a 3" throw on a 4.5" rockshaft arm (the arm is hidden behind the left cover panel). With the proper linkages, then, it can lift 350 lbs about 6" (or 175 lbs the whole 12") in one throw. So you are correct that to get to my 12" goal it'd seem to need only two "ratchet" steps!

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Zant2540
20 hours ago, ebinmaine said:

Another thing that occurred to me a few minutes ago is I was wondering if the op of this thread had caught the forklift creation build by @BeninCT

 

Yes I did see this thread.  Thank you.  At this time I don't see a need to lift higher than a factory dozer blade.  But for me at least, I am most interested in figuring out a way to possibly increase the lifting force through some kind of mechanical assistance while putting less strain on the entire WH implement system.

 

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ebinmaine
7 minutes ago, Zant2540 said:

Yes I did see this thread.  Thank you.  At this time I don't see a need to lift higher than a factory dozer blade.  But for me at least, I am most interested in figuring out a way to possibly increase the lifting force through some kind of mechanical assistance while putting less strain on the entire WH implement system.

 

One of the things that I've been thinking about doing and likely will, is to increase the size of the 3/8" pin to a hardened 1/2"  pivot of some sort.

Likely a clevis pin. 

 

The type of mechanism that you are looking to build would come in extremely handy around my acreage as well so I'm really hoping that some sort of a solution comes up. 

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Zant2540
1 hour ago, Handy Don said:

Hey, if this was easy someone would have already done it!

I have spent a lot of time thinking.  Then I think I have a good idea and I keep thinking it through and I start getting excited.  Then I realized it won't work because this or that thing is going to be in the way.   Or that it's to complicated.  It's almost like going to the fridge and there is no more beer.  Frustrating! LOL

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DennisThornton
1 minute ago, Zant2540 said:

I have spent a lot of time thinking.  Then I think I have a good idea and I keep thinking it through and I start getting excited.  Then I realized it won't work because this or that thing is going to be in the way.   Or that it's to complicated.  It's almost like going to the fridge and there is no more beer.  Frustrating! LOL

You've got lots of company!  Most of my ideas end up where my beer does too!

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ebinmaine

Yeah but the thought process is half the fun

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Zant2540

I'm going to go ahead and throw out these 4 different ideas that I have and see if anyone has input or can maybe run with it where I'm stuck.  This is going to be kind of brief due to my time restraint.  Let me know if one of them sounds interesting and I can elaborate more.  Keep in mind all of these lift systems would be operated by the factory wheel horse lift system via some kind of linkage.

 

1.)  Hy-lift / farm jack 

Lay the jack flat on top of the plow a frame.  And have it operate some kind of cam style lift off the front attach-a-matic.

 

2.)  Hydraulic floor jack.

Mount a modified floor jack to the front attach-a-matic.  Some kind of linkage to control the relief valve from the seat.  The downside of this is no down pressure.

 

3.)  Screw lift.

Start with the typical custom dozer blade front stabilizer bar, and replace it with a piece of all thread.  With a nut that could be ran up and down by a rod that could toggle left or right.  (think in the way of cog wheel and single stage blower lift rod)

 

4.) Adjustable cam arm

A cam arm attached to the front attach-a-matic, similar to the two stage blower.  With multiple adjustment holes in all directions.

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DennisThornton

Seems you are OK with getting out of the seat so how about a hand crank or 12v winch with the cable going up over a post and down to the lift point, or points?

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WVHillbilly520H
1 hour ago, Zant2540 said:

I'm going to go ahead and throw out these 4 different ideas that I have and see if anyone has input

3.)  Screw lift.

Start with the typical custom dozer blade front stabilizer bar, and replace it with a piece of all thread.  With a nut that could be ran up and down by a rod that could toggle left or right.  (think in the way of cog wheel and single stage blower lift rod)

Definitely DO NOT USE allthread for this application most that can be had easily is flimsy at best and the threads will not hold up to this kind of pressure... ACME threaded rod made from 4300 series steel is what you will need. 

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ebinmaine
55 minutes ago, WVHillbilly520H said:

Definitely DO NOT USE allthread for this application most that can be had easily is flimsy at best and the threads will not hold up to this kind of pressure... ACME threaded rod made from 4300 series steel is what you will need. 

That's a valid point.

 

Even with a good quality hardened steel rod I'm not sure I would try that application without extra long nuts in play.

 

 

2 hours ago, DennisThornton said:

Seems you are OK with getting out of the seat so how about a hand crank or 12v winch with the cable going up over a post and down to the lift point, or points?

 

12 volt winch could be powered via a remote As well. Eliminates getting out of the seat.

 

 

 

I'm not familiar with the linkage on the snow blowers. Does anybody have one set up that could demonstrate it without going to a lot of trouble?

 

 

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Zant2540
2 hours ago, DennisThornton said:

Seems you are OK with getting out of the seat so how about a hand crank or 12v winch with the cable going up over a post and down to the lift point, or points?

Everything would be operated from the seat except for my fourth idea the adjustable cam arm.  I kind of figured it would be comparable to setting up a single bottom plow (once you find your settings it would probably always stay in one set of holes, but there's a room for adjustments later if needed)

 

I did consider a hand crank winch and cable system also operable from the seat  but I kind of thought that'd be difficult to accomplish.

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WVHillbilly520H
12 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

That's a valid point.

 

Even with a good quality hardened steel rod I'm not sure I would try that application "without extra long nuts in play" 

 

I'm not familiar with the linkage on the snow blowers. Does anybody have one set up that could demonstrate it without going to a lot of trouble?

 

 

I am not sure how to respond to your line i put in quotation marks :hide:... And when I get home the 2 stage is still hitched up after 3 or more years :eusa-think:.

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DennisThornton
42 minutes ago, Zant2540 said:

Everything would be operated from the seat except for my fourth idea the adjustable cam arm.  I kind of figured it would be comparable to setting up a single bottom plow (once you find your settings it would probably always stay in one set of holes, but there's a room for adjustments later if needed)

 

I did consider a hand crank winch and cable system also operable from the seat  but I kind of thought that'd be difficult to accomplish.

Then I misunderstood more than one thing.  I do think a small 12v winch and post would work.  Lot's a dump wagons setup that way and many with a hand winch.  Most anything begins to be appealing after using a shovel and wheelbarrow!

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