Tractor shovel

[Zant2540 20]

I have done some searching on here but I have not found anywhere that it was discussed.  Has anyone built a "tractor shovel", or a clam shell attachment to a dozer blade?

 

Here is a youtube video of a company that makes them for the green tractors.

 

[Achto 27,512]

I've never seen an attachment quite like that. Johnny Bucket makes low lift buckets for various tractors.

 

http://johnnyproducts.com/

Edited March 3, 2021 by Achto

[Zant2540 20]

All of the Johnny bucket products I have seen are tilt dump, which lowers the height of the dumping point. The thing I like about the clam shell style is the extra couple of inches in the dump height.   Plus the cost savings of only having to build the clam shell part to add to my existing plow.  A new johnny bucket is $1,400.  If I did find one used locally, more than likely it won't be for a wheel horse so I would still have to fab something.

[Lee1977 6,648]

You can make one out of your snow blade. Need the hinged lower part and a way to operate it. Hydro tractor and electric operated dump. With added hydraulics and two cylinders you could also tilt it back and dump. 

[Handy Don 12,170]

Hi. Am in the midst of modeling a clamshell scoop using a 42" Cub Cadet blade and a customized lift frame. (I started with drafting tools on paper and then decided I needed more accuracy, a way to prove the mechanism worked, and a mental challenge so I am using this project to learn Fusion 360. I have to say that reprogramming my brain after decades of 2D drafting into 3D has been kinda painful but I am getting the hang of it.) I've attached an image of just the blade component model below.

 

I have put a lot of thought into making it fit and work well on a stock WH 520H platform, have useful load capacity, be easy on/off, be straightforward to build, and not cost a lot in parts. I looked very carefully at the JD (and what I believe is its ancestor, the Plucket) and have "borrowed" a couple of its ideas while incorporating solutions to my use own cases. Note that the JD unit in the picture assumes a tractor with the dual hydraulic blade (lift and angle) where the angle cylinder can be rearranged to handle the dump (it has a number of other limitations, but I'll leave it at that for now). I've also looked at a lot of other homemade and commercial scoop/buckets to measure their pros and cons and "mine" ideas.

 

 

Note: for the Plucket, look at "My Plow Bucket (Plucket) doing some hard core work" on MyTractorForum. Pretty sure Deere did their's based on this design.

 

 

Edited March 3, 2021 by Handy Don

[ebinmaine 67,317]

I've mulled this idea several times over the years. 

 

It could be home shop built fairly easily. 

 

Here's a sketch done by the one and only amazing Mr John @wallfish. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[DennisThornton 4,769]

I think the vid is awesome and that bucket would be a life changer for anyone that has only a shovel and wheelbarrow.  Note that a JD 425 is what I'd call a premium GT, pretty big, powerful, hydraulics and PS.  I like the overall idea AND I see a WH with blade mod as an interesting project.

[DennisThornton 4,769]

20 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

I've mulled this idea several times over the years. 

 

It could be home shop built fairly easily. 

 

Here's a sketch done by the one and only amazing Mr John @wallfish. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This idea needs more attention!  I missed that somehow!  I'm not sure why hasn't already gotten more attention! 

I did copy and pull into my graphics prog of choice, blow it up so I could read but I see no reason why that doesn't have it's own thread with pictures of a completed unit!  I even think that the springs could be left as is and still get good benefit with an easy on and off "Add-a-Bucket" to your Wheel Horse blade.  If it only moved mulch and loose material, a rock or some hand loaded cargo it would be most helpful to those with nothing better.

[ebinmaine 67,317]

Me and The Paint Department would like to have something like this. 

Ours would likely be electric linear actuator powered as mentioned in the above thread. 

[DennisThornton 4,769]

2 hours ago, ebinmaine said:

Me and The Paint Department would like to have something like this. 

Ours would likely be electric linear actuator powered as mentioned in the above thread. 

I think the original just might work and more leverage could still be added.  Then I'd have a better idea how much power a linear would need.

[Zant2540 20]

3 hours ago, ebinmaine said:

I've mulled this idea several times over the years. 

 

It could be home shop built fairly easily. 

 

Here's a sketch done by the one and only amazing Mr John @wallfish. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks. I missed this thread somehow

[Zant2540 20]

I have an extra dozer blade that I picked up for $20 that I was thinking of using as a guinea pig for this project. My idea is to keep this purely mechanical and not hydraulically or electrically operated.   So in theory, any wheel horse could use it.  The way I am thinking it would have two "blade angling" type levers. One would be mounted to the plow frame and control a carriage that slides the length of the plow frame and would then attach at the top spring mount holes on the blade, to control tipping the blade. The second lever would mount on the carriage and that would control the clam shell action.

[Zant2540 20]

@Handy Don I like how the back of your plucket has 8" of travel coverage with the rounded bottom.  Let's you angle the clam shell to hold the load rather than the blade. 

 

Do you have stops on the inside of the bucket to take the force of loading impact?

Edited March 4, 2021 by Zant2540

[ebinmaine 67,317]

8 hours ago, Zant2540 said:

purely mechanical

That's very interesting and something that I'd like to see.

 

It would be nice to keep it simple.

 

I'd be curious to know how much strength it would take to open a loaded clamshell setup. 

[Zant2540 20]

The more I think of it, the plucket design might be more simple rather than building a carriage to tilt the angle. The clam shell lever could index at closed, tilted and full open.

 

@Handy Don the curve on the bottom obviously adds anti-sagging strength. How well has the 1/4" plate held up as far as sagging is concerned?  And did you add any reinforcement such as a cutting edge?

[ebinmaine 67,317]

24 minutes ago, Zant2540 said:

any reinforcement such as a cutting edge?

 

1/4"  steel even in a mild form is going to be pretty rugged but if you try to leverage something with the middle of the span you might be able to tweak it a little.

On an application like this I would absolutely want a replaceable cutting edge if it was for my own use.

 

You could accomplish both extra virginity and a replaceable cutting edge by purchasing a skid steer bucket lip on Amazon.

They are .5 x 4 x 60 inches.  $70 delivered to your door. 

[Zant2540 20]

1 hour ago, ebinmaine said:

bucket lip on Amazon.

They are .5 x 4 x 60 inches.  $70 delivered to your door. 

Good to know.

 

I definitely need to keep the weight in mind. A 1/4" plate for just the bottom would be around 60 pounds.  I might be better off to build some kind of skeleton clam shell and then skin it, kind of similar to the way the dozer blade is built.  After all this whole thing is being lifted by a 3/8" pin 3 foot back.  I guess I could make some kind of cam style lift out front, similar to the two stage blower.  But I'm trying to keep it a simple design, easy to function, low cost and hopefully hold up in time.

[DennisThornton 4,769]

24 minutes ago, Zant2540 said:

Good to know.

 

I definitely need to keep the weight in mind. A 1/4" plate for just the bottom would be around 60 pounds.  I might be better off to build some kind of skeleton clam shell and then skin it, kind of similar to the way the dozer blade is built.  After all this whole thing is being lifted by a 3/8" pin 3 foot back.  I guess I could make some kind of cam style lift out front, similar to the two stage blower.  But I'm trying to keep it a simple design, easy to function, low cost and hopefully hold up in time.

I have a Johnny Bucket style, manual lift and it is of borderline use.  Ok for mulch but it just won't lift much weight.  I'd think that ultimately one would want some help lifting.

[Handy Don 12,170]

12 hours ago, Zant2540 said:

@Handy Don I like how the back of your plucket has 8" of travel coverage with the rounded bottom.  Let's you angle the clam shell to hold the load rather than the blade. 

 

Do you have stops on the inside of the bucket to take the force of loading impact?

 

3 hours ago, Zant2540 said:

The more I think of it, the plucket design might be more simple rather than building a carriage to tilt the angle. The clam shell lever could index at closed, tilted and full open.

 

@Handy Don the curve on the bottom obviously adds anti-sagging strength. How well has the 1/4" plate held up as far as sagging is concerned?  And did you add any reinforcement such as a cutting edge?

 

Just to be very clear, the Plucket is not my work or invention.  I found the videos and posts while doing my research and though it was a very well executed idea given the pre-requisites of a very capable tractor and hydraulically-equipped front blade! I posted the link as I knew others here would appreciate it and it is a publicly available resource.

 

That curved bottom and overlap were among the ideas I most admired, too, along with the "easily removed from the blade" feature. While looking at it, I realized that he did install stops to absorb "pushing into the pile" force through the clam and into the blade (you can hear the clamshell striking the stops when it closes in one of the other videos he published). Though none of his pictures or videos showed where they were in detail, I suspect they form a lip atop the bottom of clam at the point where the flat bottom starts to curve up so it can strike the scraper edge of the blade. Bending that curved rear of the bottom of the clamshell to fit closely to the bottom of the blade was not a casual fabrication effort, however.

 

Weight is one huge issue here, since the useful capacity is the capacity of the lifting mechanism minus the weight of the clam and blade. I'm aiming for 3 cu. ft. in my design. For soil, that is over 300 lbs.; for gravel or damp sand, even more. I'm hoping to keep the lifted parts of my clamshell and blade, including the opening mechanism, to less than 80 lbs. A lift capacity of 380+ lbs, even with good leverage, takes grunt. WH's 2-stage blowers are around 300 lbs. and need helper springs to get just 4-5" up. I've calculated that this is pretty close to the WH hydro lift's capacity, too. More capacity starts to affect other things, and likely dictates a subframe. So, for me, ¼" plate is not in the plans--I'm leaning toward ⅛" with strategic reinforcement using additional ⅛" strips plus sturdy leading and trailing edges. 

 

 

 

Edited March 4, 2021 by Handy Don

[Zant2540 20]

@Handy Don thanks for clearing that up.  All your input is appreciated.

[WVHillbilly520H 10,373]

@Handy Don, The 2Stage TORO designed blowers are 320-360#  (mine closer to the upper range with some of the modifications I made during rebuild) anyways to be technically clear the helper spring isn't needed for the hydro tractors to lift it (but it does ease the effort) it is more for the manual lift and to help keep it "level" while in transport mode, also have you considered the mounting/lift system of the single stage throwers for this application, where the main frame hinge/attachment would be the front Attach-A-Matic and the single long arm to a centralized lift point at the lower part of the plow/bucket frame, allowing a much higher overall lift? 

[Zant2540 20]

@WVHillbilly520H I did consider single stage mount, the same as the Johnny bucket.  But I was thinking the dozer blade design would be better because of two things.  1) every video I've seen of Johnny bucket operation or even the tractor shovel video I posted at the beginning of the thread seems to require driving with momentum into piles to load.  2) the plow angle lever gives an option for operating the clam shell.

[Handy Don 12,170]

10 minutes ago, WVHillbilly520H said:

also have you considered the mounting/lift system of the single stage throwers for this application, where the main frame hinge/attachment would be the front Attach-A-Matic and the single long arm to a centralized lift point at the lower part of the plow/bucket frame, allowing a much higher overall lift? 

I have.

 

A couple factors are in play here.  The single-stage blowers are much lighter, they don't lift much (if any) higher because, well, lifting a snow blower more than 4-5" is usually not worth much.

 

And, there is the decrease in leverage plus the limits of the rod's throw. The lever arm is the perpendicular distance from the push rod to the front attach pivot point--the higher the lift the shorter that distance becomes. As the lever arm shortens, the force needed increases. Plus, there is a limit as the pushrod fore and aft throw is a bit less than 5" when connected to the usual rockshaft mounting hole.

 

I'm looking to get at least 12" of vertical motion for the bucket (2" below grade to 10" above) so am being a bit creative here.

[Handy Don 12,170]

2 minutes ago, Zant2540 said:

@WVHillbilly520H I did consider single stage mount, the same as the Johnny bucket.  But I was thinking the dozer blade design would be better because of two things.  1) every video I've seen of Johnny bucket operation or even the tractor shovel video I posted at the beginning of the thread seems to require driving with momentum into piles to load.  2) the plow angle lever gives an option for operating the clam shell.

Agree on both.

Momentum is powerful and dangerous (to the scoop, the tractor, and the operator!)

You need a second active control to work the clam.

[ebinmaine 67,317]

14 minutes ago, Zant2540 said:

require driving with momentum

Just a couple thoughts about that.

 

I haven't the foggiest what the statistics are but I would venture to say that most of the people that would use a Johnny bucket are putting it onto a lawn mower or a much lighter weight vehicle than a lot of our 600, 700 lb Horses and they just don't have the mass to be able to push in or more importantly, TRACTION.

 

My Cinnamon horse is weighted with fluid all the way around and also steel weights. A lot of lawn mowers weigh maybe 300 lb.

This particular garden tractor is over a thousand...

 

 

 

Also, I'm really enjoying all the back and forth here and learning about how these things operate.