Go Green

[Handy Don 12,247]

42 minutes ago, SylvanLakeWH said:

This whole conversation reminds me of when my son was learning binary code in college... to ease his frustration, I told him:

 

There are ten kinds of people in the world... those that understand binary code... and those that don’t... 

 

Usually shown as "There are 10 kinds of people..."

[SylvanLakeWH 25,606]

5 minutes ago, Handy Don said:

Usually shown as "There are 10 kinds of people..."

Good catch!

 

I guess I don’t understand...

 

[wh500special 2,188]

1 hour ago, dcrage said:

Damn that is good news. That means I wasn’t BSing those high school chemistry students I taught back in the eighties. 
 

And I had the same experiences/feelings about Physical Chemistry and Thermodynamics as you had with Diff Eq. Us chemistry types really couldn’t understand you engineering students who breezed thru our Thermo classes. 

 

If you wanted to BS them, you could have told them about Fugacity.  That always seemed like a cop out to me.

 

I think thermo is too practical for real scientists.  That's why engineers do well.  Instead of a study of its own, thermo is a tool for solving problems.  Anytime I got a new textbook I'd quickly look in the back to see if there were steam tables...I knew we'd moved on when they stopped sticking them in there.

 

I loved P-Chem, although I took the Chem-E version.  For us at my school, it was interspersed in a second thermo course, a surface chemistry course, and our version of kinetics.  Collectively, it was hard but none of us kidded ourselves that it was the same intensity that the chemists dealt with over in the true sciences.

 

Chemists and Physicists.  THOSE are the smart guys!

 

Steve

[wh500special 2,188]

double post

Edited February 19, 2021 by wh500special

[wh500special 2,188]

triple

Edited February 19, 2021 by wh500special

[tom2p 2,394]

my youngest kid is an engineering student (ME)

 

he has done very well - including differential equations 

 

the class / area he mentions as one of the most challenging is organic chemistry 

 

[wh500special 2,188]

What’s he doing taking organic as an ME?  Is he thinking premed?  Or perhaps

something like biomedical engineering?

 

Organic is tough because the pace is fast for the amount of information you need to absorb. Lots of memorization required to know the scores of reaction forms in the time you have to cover it.  It’s a real weed out class for premeds. 

When he’s done, he’ll look back in two years and it will click.  It’s all about shapes and shoving electrons into places to make things happen. 
 

it’s a tough subject.  But invaluable at understanding how things work and why, for instance, it’s a waste of money to put premium gas in a car that’s not designed for it. 
 

fun stuff. 
 

steve

Edited February 20, 2021 by wh500special

[Handy Don 12,247]

12 hours ago, wh500special said:

What’s he doing taking organic as an ME?  Is he thinking premed?  Or perhaps

something like biomedical engineering?

 

Organic is tough because the pace is fast for the amount of information you need to absorb. Lots of memorization required to know the scores of reaction forms in the time you have to cover it.  It’s a real weed out class for premeds. 

When he’s done, he’ll look back in two years and it will click.  It’s all about shapes and shoving electrons into places to make things happen. 
 

it’s a tough subject.  But invaluable at understanding how things work and why, for instance, it’s a waste of money to put premium gas in a car that’s not designed for it. 
 

fun stuff. 
 

steve

[dcrage 628]

15 hours ago, wh500special said:

What’s he doing taking organic as an ME?  Is he thinking premed?  Or perhaps

something like biomedical engineering?

 

Organic is tough because the pace is fast for the amount of information you need to absorb. Lots of memorization required to know the scores of reaction forms in the time you have to cover it.  It’s a real weed out class for premeds. 

When he’s done, he’ll look back in two years and it will click.  It’s all about shapes and shoving electrons into places to make things happen. 
 

it’s a tough subject.  But invaluable at understanding how things work and why, for instance, it’s a waste of money to put premium gas in a car that’s not designed for it. 
 

fun stuff. 
 

steve

 

You see that is spoken like a real engineering nerd who could sail thru Thermo and probably Physical Chemistry if you put your mind to it.  Actually these different ways of learning became very obvious to me in my undergraduate chemistry major days and just got more confirmation in my graduate work.  I could never figure out all of the 'given & assumed info' in a thermo or a pchem problem but caught on how to do organic chemistry classwork pretty quickly (it helped having two OUTSTANDING professors teaching and a great text book). And I saw plenty of examples of the other kinds of learners; flunk organic and sail thru the more math related courses.  Mind you I was not an organic chemist.  Also as an aside, my math skills (algebra specifically) sucked in college and grad school.  I suspect I would have understood some of the PChem better if I had taken it AFTER teaching high school math for 4 years!

[Handy Don 12,247]

10 minutes ago, dcrage said:

 

You see that is spoken like a real engineering nerd who could sail thru Thermo and probably Physical Chemistry if you put your mind to it.  Actually these different ways of learning became very obvious to me in my undergraduate chemistry major days and just got more confirmation in my graduate work.  I could never figure out all of the 'given & assumed info' in a thermo or a pchem problem but caught on how to do organic chemistry classwork pretty quickly (it helped having two OUTSTANDING professors teaching and a great text book). And I saw plenty of examples of the other kinds of learners; flunk organic and sail thru the more math related courses.  Mind you I was not an organic chemist.  Also as an aside, my math skills (algebra specifically) sucked in college and grad school.  I suspect I would have understood some of the PChem better if I had taken it AFTER teaching high school math for 4 years!

I am still puzzled about 6.02x10^23 things everywhere but the thermo and dynamics problems were like catnip!

[tom2p 2,394]

On 2/19/2021 at 9:26 PM, wh500special said:

What’s he doing taking organic as an ME?  Is he thinking premed?  Or perhaps

something like biomedical engineering?

 

Actually - he has not taken organic chem.

 

one of his housemates is a CE major - and just observing (organic) was enough to convince him he wanted no parts of it  lol.

no premed for him - he is ME ... 

 

pic below of him at a steam engine and tractor show when he was just a little guy ... he has always been fascinated with just about anything / everything mechanical

 

Edited February 21, 2021 by tom2p

[wh500special 2,188]

On 2/20/2021 at 12:39 PM, Handy Don said:

I am still puzzled about 6.02x10^23 things everywhere but the thermo and dynamics problems were like catnip!

Avogadro’s number.  One of my favorites!  Pops up in chemistry everywhere. 

for whatever reason, I have an aptitude for committing numbers like that to memory, usually after seeing them a single time.  Was handy for test taking and still come in handy today. 
 

I used to be the same way with phone numbers, but it’s slipped a bit.  If I dialed it once, I’d remember it.  Now it might take two or three times.   Having them programmed into my cell phone is slowly killing that ability.  Much like one of my original points that some of our technological progressions are, I think, putting a damper on our problem solving skills.  
 

Steve 

Edited February 23, 2021 by wh500special

[ebinmaine 67,697]

25 minutes ago, wh500special said:

used to be the same way with phone numbers, but it’s slipped a bit.  If I dialed it once, I’d remember it.  Now it might take two or three times.   Having them programmed into my cell phone is slowly killing that ability.  Much like one of my original points that some of our technological progressions are, I think, putting a damper on our problem solving skills

Yepp. 

Been there. 

Used to be pretty fair at customer phone numbers but couldn't remember their names. 

,🤣🤣

 

I do witness and experience the dampening you speak of as well. 

 

When I was a teen I rode my BMX all over the place. 

Memorized literally 95+% of the town's streets. 

Now I need GPS to get to the basement workshop. 

 

 

[wh500special 2,188]

On 2/20/2021 at 12:27 PM, dcrage said:

 

You see that is spoken like a real engineering nerd who could sail thru Thermo and probably Physical Chemistry if you put your mind to it.  Actually these different ways of learning became very obvious to me in my undergraduate chemistry major days and just got more confirmation in my graduate work.  I could never figure out all of the 'given & assumed info' in a thermo or a pchem problem but caught on how to do organic chemistry classwork pretty quickly (it helped having two OUTSTANDING professors teaching and a great text book). And I saw plenty of examples of the other kinds of learners; flunk organic and sail thru the more math related courses.  Mind you I was not an organic chemist.  Also as an aside, my math skills (algebra specifically) sucked in college and grad school.  I suspect I would have understood some of the PChem better if I had taken it AFTER teaching high school math for 4 years!

I think there is a different mind type that predisposes people to pick up some things faster.  Math, for instance, is probably something that no matter how hard some people work at may not come through. 
 

Orgo in college comes at at time when students don’t have a lot of time to devote to understanding the how’s and why’s so it

usually turns into a class of memorization and regurgitation.  Which is fine if your career goal is to be something other than an organic chemist.  I know when I took it as a sophomore I had other classes that were my priorities so I didn’t put much into organic.  I did fine, but didn’t get out of it what I should have.   Some of it came later when I had to refer back to my textbook to work through an engineering problem.  
 

my first semester orgo teacher was fantastic in my opinion.   Second semester was just ok.  Made a huge impact on how many of us digested the lessons.  
 

A big part of an engineering curriculum  is getting exposed to scads of different kinds of problem and being able to know how to go about finding a method to solve for them.  A lot of this involves just recognizing that you’ve seen it or something like it before and knowing how to look things up.  

 

It was always easy to figure out who literally did their homework as opposed to those who relied on fraternity files and study groups.  There was a direct correlation to who “tested well” and who spent their Friday and Saturday nights doing problem sets, compared to those who had a better social experience.   In the end, I don’t think interviewing employers knew the difference during the interview, but I’m sure it showed up after he second week on the job. 
 

Two of my ChE professors would frequently muse about how chemists were too obsessed with whizzing electrons to really know what what going on in a system.  But they also were quick to point out that chemists really knew their chemistry compared to those of us who would fake it. 
 

I’d love to go back to school someday when I can make it my full

time occupation.  There is so much real science I’d love to dig into more deeply.  
 

Steve

 

[wh500special 2,188]

4 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

Yepp. 

Been there. 

Used to be pretty fair at customer phone numbers but couldn't remember their names....

 

I’m “one of those guys” who usually remembers names really well.  It’s not a deep permanent memory, but handy nonetheless when we have big meetings with many guests.  People will introduce themselves as we go around the room and I’ll usually remember all of them.  I can usually do twenty or thirty at a time and maybe only forget one or two.  

 

but it’s usually fleeting most of

the time and only lasts few days beyond the event.  But sometimes it’s permanent. 
 

It drives my neighbors nuts.  I can tell most of them don’t remember me and are always surprised when I address them by name.  

 

We just hired a couple of new people

in the office last week and I have been having an uncharacteristically hard time remembering one of their names.   Granted, it’s a long name with two z’s (TWO!) that I have never seen before (I’d bet nobody here has either) but it’s still a sad commentary to not be able to remember someone’s name.  I must have written it 200 times on a piece of paper trying to force myself to remember.  I think it worked.  Hopefully tomorrow I don’t have to do one of those generic “hey you” sort of greetings.   
 

and yet I’d never make it as a waiter.  There is no way I’d remember what people ordered.  Many times I don’t even remember what I ordered. 
 

weirdo.  
 

Steve

[wh500special 2,188]

On 2/20/2021 at 10:38 PM, tom2p said:

Actually - he has not taken organic chem.

 

one of his housemates is a CE major - and just observing (organic) was enough to convince him he wanted no parts of it  lol.

no premed for him - he is ME ... 

 

pic below of him at a steam engine and tractor show when he was just a little guy ... he has always been fascinated with just about anything / everything mechanical

 

Looks like he was destined to be an ME. 
 

If I had to do it over again and stay with engineering I’d probably do

mechanical.   There is something gratifying about being able to put your hands on your creation. 
 

plus, a lot of it is quite interesting and most of it is intuitive enough that you can develop a feel for being on the right track or not. 
 

ME’s cover a wide enough range so as not to be experts on anything in particular but have a good idea what’s going on with most things.   It’s a great path.
 

hopefully he’s learned how to pick out the good engineers from the average engineers by now.   It they dress poorly, are socially awkward, could care less about sports, and are generally clueless then they know what they are talking about.   
 

Stay away from the rest.  
 

steve. 

[Handy Don 12,247]

1 hour ago, wh500special said:

There is something gratifying about being able to put your hands on your creation

So true. My daughter knew when she started that she wanted to make things.  I like it too, but I learned I have a knack for systems integrations -- understanding the pieces and dynamics and coaxing them into a "thing" -- and for admiring those who make the pieces! 

When I worked with teens I'd point out the two different parts of the Math SAT.  There were equations that you had to just solve and there were word problems where you had to figure out what the equations should be first and then solve them.  I'm a word problem guy!

[ebinmaine 67,697]

7 hours ago, wh500special said:

hopefully he’s learned how to pick out the good engineers from the average engineers by now.   It they dress poorly, are socially awkward, could care less about sports, and are generally clueless then they know what they are talking about.   
 

Stay away from the rest

That reminds me of an old riddle about a very remote town with 2 barbers and how to choose the better one. 

Surprising how many people choose the neat clean one with no hair on his floor. 

 

[ebinmaine 67,697]

7 hours ago, wh500special said:

 Many times I don’t even remember what I ordered. 
 

weirdo

I've done that. 

Many times. 

[Pullstart 62,922]

3 hours ago, ebinmaine said:

That reminds me of an old riddle about a very remote town with 2 barbers and how to choose the better one. 

Surprising how many people choose the neat clean one with no hair on his floor. 

 

I was in a shop for my niece’s 1st birthday party last weekend... immaculate place.  I questioned “how can you get anything done in here?  It’s too clean!”

[wh500special 2,188]

9 hours ago, Handy Don said:

So true....I'm a word problem guy!

EVERYTHING is a word problem.  
 

Nobody would accuse me of having any grand vision, but it used to frustrate me even in high school when classmates would pull that “when are going to use this in real life?” routine, especially in math.  
 

Almost everything has some real world application.  Just takes imagination to recognize the opportunities. 
 

steve 

[tom2p 2,394]

On 2/23/2021 at 8:27 AM, wh500special said:

EVERYTHING is a word problem.  
 

Nobody would accuse me of having any grand vision, but it used to frustrate me even in high school when classmates would pull that “when are going to use this in real life?” routine, especially in math.  
 

Almost everything has some real world application.  Just takes imagination to recognize the opportunities. 
 

steve 

agree 

even the simple things 

 

when you cross a street with a car approaching you use math ... two variables to consider