Sounds too crazy to be true!

[richmondred01 2,237]

From the engineering genius’ that brought us the Kursk.

I don’t think so...........

[Mickwhitt 4,642]

4 hours ago, richmondred01 said:

the

I watched a TV documentary yesterday about war production in Russia.  I was always told they prevailed because they built T34s faster than the germans could blow them up. 

Turns out that's wrong. They built very little and relied heavily on American imports of vehicles and tanks, food and even boots.

What really made me sit up was that Russia killed more of its own civilian population than the germans did in the concentration camps. 19 million people! On top of 9 million military. 

You can do a lot when life is so cheap. 

[AMC RULES 37,132]

It's a global economy. 

https://www.history.com/topics/world-war-ii/lend-lease-act-1#:~:text=The Lend-Lease Act stated,while still remaining officially neutral

[McGrew 460]

16 hours ago, Ed Kennell said:

A large project was required to justify the cost involved in the design, manufacture, and testing of a model turbine.    

 The models I tested produced around 300HP. The prototype turbines built based on the model test produced much more, for examplee  the  Grand Coulee turbines produce one million HP.   The cross-flow turbine was designed to be a small inexpensive means of generating electricity in remote areas with a very low head dam.    They were a reaction type impeller designed for low head / high flow conditions.    I have tested Pelton, Francis, fixed blade, adjustable blade Kaplan,  and reversible pump turbines, but never a cross flow.

Ed, those are crazy numbers, but completely understandable.  The cross flows we tested were 12” in diameter and 10” wide.  They produced less than 3HP on the dyno.  We tested hundreds of them with different number blades and radius of blades.  I saved the models for years as they were a work of art.  Unfortunately, I eventually had to get rid of them as they took up so much space. All of our work was to improve the efficiency of water wheels in third world countries.  Danny 

[Greentored 3,216]

Those actually work great til you hit the starter for the first time.

[Pullstart 62,922]

6 minutes ago, Greentored said:

Those actually work great til you hit the starter for the first time.

What if it’s a @pullstart?

[Greentored 3,216]

36 minutes ago, pullstart said:

What if it’s a @pullstart?

you better have a big rope and a bigger arm LOL

[Ed Kennell 38,252]

On 2/13/2021 at 1:07 PM, McGrew said:

Ed, those are crazy numbers, but completely understandable.  The cross flows we tested were 12” in diameter and 10” wide.  They produced less than 3HP on the dyno.  We tested hundreds of them with different number blades and radius of blades.  I saved the models for years as they were a work of art.  Unfortunately, I eventually had to get rid of them as they took up so much space. All of our work was to improve the efficiency of water wheels in third world countries.  Danny 

What metal was used for your models? Welded or riveter?  Were they RPM  governed to run gennys or just flow controlled  to drive belts?  Any pictures?

I have a few yard art models left.

A bronze solid one piece cast model turbine about 15" OD.        This was the way model runners ware made when I started with Allis Chalmers in 1964.     Surface accuracy was about +-  0.050"

 

Later I developed a  process where each bucket was machined on a 5axis  mill and then assembled with machine screws.    Accuracy was improved to +- 0.005" on all surfaces and the runners could be disassembled for altering in the 5X mill.

This is the Robert Moses model for the power plant at Niagara Falls.    It is on display in the visitors center.

 

A wood/ aluminum display model runner.

 

This is an actual full size  low head  Tube Turbine we marketed  that had a similar application as your cross flow.  Not a very successful project

 

[Chestnut 315]

On 2/12/2021 at 9:32 AM, Ed Kennell said:

All machines ,mechanical, hydraulic, and pneumatic have losses. This includes springs.

And Thermal. Second law of thermodynamics. Because one was overlooked when they were first written they are numbered 0-3

0. There is energy and it can be measured (think temperature)

1. Energy tends to flow from a higher state to a lower state

2. Some energy is always lost as it flows

3. You can't stop the flow

 

Allen Ginsburg the beat poet is attributed with the best (IMO) summary of the laws, Some call it a parody. Ginsburg's theorem (about 1975).

0. There is a game

1. You can't win

2. You can't break even

3. You can't get out of the game

[Handy Don 12,247]

1 hour ago, Chestnut said:

Allen Ginsburg the beat poet is attributed with the best (IMO) summary of the laws, Some call it a parody. Ginsburg's theorem (about 1975).

0. There is a game

1. You can't win

2. You can't break even

3. You can't get out of the game

I had a manager once who quoted this often. Never gave attribution (so thank you @Chestnut). He was so downbeat and pessimistic I finally looked for, and found, another job.

[Chestnut 315]

5 minutes ago, Handy Don said:

I had a manager once who quoted this often. Never gave attribution (so thank you @Chestnut). He was so downbeat and pessimistic I finally looked for, and found, another job.

Yeah, it's not a good philosophy for life. Fortunately, the universe won't run out of chips for billions more years which is well beyond my time horizon.

[McGrew 460]

2 hours ago, Ed Kennell said:

What metal was used for your models? Welded or riveter?  Were they RPM  governed to run gennys or just flow controlled  to drive belts?  Any pictures?

I have a few yard art models left.

A bronze solid one piece cast model turbine about 15" OD.        This was the way model runners ware made when I started with Allis Chalmers in 1964.     Surface accuracy was about +-  0.050"

 

Later I developed a  process where each bucket was machined on a 5axis  mill and then assembled with machine screws.    Accuracy was improved to +- 0.005" on all surfaces and the runners could be disassembled for altering in the 5X mill.

This is the Robert Moses model for the power plant at Niagara Falls.    It is on display in the visitors center.

 

A wood/ aluminum display model runner.

 

This is an actual full size  low head  Tube Turbine we marketed  that had a similar application as your cross flow.  Not a very successful project

 

Ed, That is some really interesting toys you have!  All of our models were made entirely of plexiglas.  They resembled an old time water wheel rather than a turbine.  Each model was keyed to a 1" stainless steel shaft that hooked directly to the Magtrol dynamometer.   The wheels were not rpm limited.   In a typical water wheel, the water is applied at a tangent (sort of)  to the wheel.    With the crossflow, the water hit the wheel almost directly above the centerline of the wheel.  The curved vanes at the top started the wheel rotating and the water hit the vanes a second time on the bottom of the wheel as it was exiting.    This testing was done over 30 years ago, and each model was made on a manual milling machine.  CNC was not common yet.  Each vane had a radius, as they were cut from plexiglas pipe.  Each curved vane was dadoed (SP?)  into the two side walls of the wheel and bonded with MEK.  We must have had over a hundred models, and the boys in the machine shop hated to see us coming...   This research produced several thesis and at least one dissertation.  Pictures?  I wish.  Digital cameras were still a dream.   I wish I had kept at least one of the models.  I will try to put mu hands on the thesis and post some pics.  Danny

Edited February 16, 2021 by McGrew
info

[Slimpickins 61]

I so see these working if cut the pistons with releafs like you do for valves and add a renutenator injector valve.

[McGrew 460]

Ed, I found a few pics in the old thesis...  

 

[McGrew 460]

One more...