water heater questions

[wallfish 17,017]

The expansion tank will do it's job mounted like that but why stress the drop T it connects to for no reason?  Hang it vertical and it doesn't need any support. 

I was told by a plumber not to use those brass PEX connector/fittings. They will eventually corrode and choke the pipe.

Maybe it was the cheapo ones at HD or Lowes he was referring to but can't remember. We just use the plastic connectors and don't worry about it. I have seen those brass connectors restricting flow from corrosion on a few occasions. We install Radon in water filtration systems so we are constantly dealing with other issues that have absolutely nothing to do with us. Even though it is thoroughly explained to them how we are not responsible for the whole house plumbing we never touch, people always try to get crap fixed for free.

We use the white PEX for the filtration lines but typically see red and blue for any other lines. 

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

7 hours ago, squonk said:

Pretty hard to find USA made black iron fittings around here anyway

 

https:\\www.supplyhouse.com

 

Have done business with them for over a decade, never got screwed, FAST shipping, reasonable prices, they have USA made black pipe and fittings. (and damn near everything else you need for plumbing and/or HVAC.  And other stuff too!

[82Caddy 851]

4 hours ago, RandyLittrell said:

 

That was how it was illustrated in the manual and a couple of youtube videos I watched had it that way. I do need to go get some strapping yet to support it better. 

 

If I need to change it, I can. That is the great thing about pex. 

 

 

 

Randy

 

Is there a shut off on the expansion tank? If not, add one you’ll thank me when the tank fails and you have to replace it.

 

Changing expansion tanks on boiler systems that don’t have a shut off turns into an hour production for something that should take 5-10 minutes tops if there is a shut off. 

[RandyLittrell 3,884]

1 hour ago, 82Caddy said:

Is there a shut off on the expansion tank?

 

I put a shut off on the hot side coming out of the heater and it's directly above that. So it should be easy if needed. 

 

 

4 hours ago, wallfish said:

The expansion tank will do it's job mounted like that but why stress the drop T it connects to for no reason?  Hang it vertical and it doesn't need any support. 

I was told by a plumber not to use those brass PEX connector/fittings. They will eventually corrode and choke the pipe.

 

 

Honestly the expansion tank fit there well and I didn't know it was not the best idea. I still have to run some strapping around it tomorrow. My back and knees said it was time to rest. I stepped off the ladder yesterday and my knee bend just a little and I went down. I had to go on disability a couple of years ago and I can't do things like I used to and it takes a lot longer. If not for my son's help, I could not have done this and no way could I afford to pay a plumber

 

I did a lot of research and never come across that brass connections were bad. Also, Sioux Chief manufacturing is just a few miles from my house and they make the fittings. I like to support local when I can. Been working on cars my whole life and always thought plastic parts were the crappy stuff. I guess if they get corroded I can change them out. Its a 100 year old house the the old pipes only had about a 1/4" hole down the middle left from all the corrosion. My water is sooo clear right now and taste good to me. 

 

They had white, clear, red and blue pex, when I bought this last batch. The first time I bought they only had the white locally. I just picked what was correct for the fittings I was using. 

 

I know a pro would have done things a little different, but I just didn't have that option. For now, they work better than they have since we bought this house 26 years ago. It would have helped if I could have done it all at once, but had to do the lines in 2 steps. Took me awhile to save up for the new water heater. 

 

 

So thankful for the help guys!! 

 

 

 

 

Randy

Edited February 1, 2021 by RandyLittrell

[lynnmor 7,315]

I'm a little late here.  I will never install a new water heater without first removing the anode rod and re-installing it with Teflon tape and not make it so tight.  After fighting anodes with a 3/4" impact wrench it must be a cruel joke from the factory.  You should have clearance above the water heater for anode replacement, if not possible use the hot dog string type.  I know, almost everybody ignores this maintenance and many never heard of it.

 

[Pullstart 62,922]

On 1/31/2021 at 10:32 AM, RandyLittrell said:

The other reason to replace the hot water heater, is that yesterday we finished running all new pex lines in the house. I even sweated in a new fitting where it comes in the house and it doesn't leak!! My first time to sweat a joint at 54 years old! 

 

So now, I have all new water lines and new water heater!! 

 

The old lines were copper, black pipe, galvenized pipe, and pvc! 100 year old houses sees lots of things done in that time period!! 

 

 

 

Randy

Just a water heater.  If the water was hot, it wouldn’t need heating 

 

On 1/31/2021 at 10:53 AM, rmaynard said:

Just my two cents worth. For the gas connection, use whatever material is most convenient, black iron, copper tubing, or corrugated. My daughters house was run with all corrugated from the incoming manifold to every appliance, and some runs were quite long. Check for leaks and you are good to go. Yes, gas can be dangerous, but only if you have a leak.

 

Full disclosure, I'm not a plumber or gas fitter, but as a homeowner and handyman, I have done many "unauthorized" gas connections in my lifetime, both natural gas and propane. After watching a master plumber do several, I felt very comfortable seeing how he did it. 

 

 

Corrugated in many new houses is much larger than you would imagine needed to overcome pressure drop.  I am very surprised to see it used as a rough in tool... cheaper is better now days and labor is cut big time running that yellow hose.

[RandyLittrell 3,884]

5 minutes ago, pullstart said:

Just a water heater.  If the water was hot, it wouldn’t need heating 

 

I tried really hard not to say that, I guess I missed that one! Old habits are hard to break!! 

 

6 minutes ago, pullstart said:

Corrugated in many new houses is much larger than you would imagine needed to overcome pressure drop.  I am very surprised to see it used as a rough in tool... cheaper is better now days and labor is cut big time running that yellow hose.

 

No way would I run a long stretch of corrugated, I just used a 4' section and the rest new pipe! 

 

8 minutes ago, pullstart said:

cheaper is better now days and labor is cut big time running that yellow hose.

 

I will take my 100 year old house over a new one anyday!! All hardwood, brick and plaster and lath. There could be a tornado outside and I don't know it unless I see the trees whipping around through the window!! 

 

Happy to say everything works great with no leaks. Now to install the toilet with built in pump, work never ends!! 

 

 

 

 

Randy

[Pullstart 62,922]

On 1/31/2021 at 7:43 PM, Jeff-C175 said:

 

https:\\www.supplyhouse.com

 

Have done business with them for over a decade, never got screwed, FAST shipping, reasonable prices, they have USA made black pipe and fittings. (and damn near everything else you need for plumbing and/or HVAC.  And other stuff too!

Me too!  They are actually a wholesaler for the industry in Vineland, NJ called Ace Plumbing Supply I believe.  They have many items for the water heating industry and are typically my go-to for most items of a big upcoming job.  The local guys are left for the parts I forget!  

 

On 1/31/2021 at 11:09 PM, RandyLittrell said:

put a shut off on the hot side coming out of the heater and it's directly above that

If you have the chance to recipe this before stopping it down, typically the tank is installed before the water heater.  When the water heater recovers, by design the expanded hot water back feeds to the inlet.  This essentially creates an extra volume of hot water once a draw happens.  With it on the outlet, the buffer created makes a variable outcome.

 

 

On 2/1/2021 at 11:18 AM, lynnmor said:

I'm a little late here.  I will never install a new water heater without first removing the anode rod and re-installing it with Teflon tape and not make it so tight.  After fighting anodes with a 3/4" impact wrench it must be a cruel joke from the factory.  You should have clearance above the water heater for anode replacement, if not possible use the hot dog string type.  I know, almost everybody ignores this maintenance and many never heard of it.

 

 

Planned maintenance is everything!  The manufacturer suggests minimum clearances to allow for replacement of a solid rod, though I realize many times it isn’t feasible in real life.  I’d rather tip the tank over a bit for proper replacement than a hot dog unit.  Reason being, anode rods work on electrolysis and if one of the links becomes isolated by calcium build up or the like, it becomes useless.

 

I don’t mean to sound arrogant or anything, but have spent many years instructing plumbers on troubleshooting and other techniques at a water heater manufacturer and though I chose to leave, I very much respect the knowledge I gained and the people who taught me!  One more thing... about anode removal.  @ebinmaine knows it too.  Many times if you cannot loosen a connnection, you can still tighten one.  Running a cast tee onto the anode in order to turn it a bit tighter, you can break loose those factory connections.  Then, you’re likely able to turn the tee and the anode out at the same time.

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

On 2/1/2021 at 11:18 AM, lynnmor said:

first removing the anode rod

 

My recent install of a new water heater included a powered anode.

 

https://www.corroprotec.com/

 

Time will tell if it's better than the typical unpowered sacrificial anode.

 

I can tell you that I no longer have the 'typical' stinky hot water from my private well system.

 

The little 'wall wart' supply that comes with the anode is a 15 milliamp constant current source.

 

The theory is sound and well proven in industry and ship building for a LONG time.  It works.  

 

https://www.specialistcastings.com/anodes/impressed-current-protection-anodes/#:~:text=Impressed Current Protection Anodes%2C (sometimes,metal structure to be protected.

 

Is it worth it with a water heater?  On city water, probably not, On my private well with stinky hot water, worth it's weight in titanium.

[Pullstart 62,922]

1 minute ago, RandyLittrell said:

Happy to say everything works great with no leaks. Now to install the toilet with built in pump, work never ends!! 

 

good deal!  Macerating toilet, huh?  Those things discharge solids all demolished into 3/4” pipe!  Crazy stuff!

[Pullstart 62,922]

1 minute ago, Jeff-C175 said:

 

My recent install of a new water heater included a powered anode.

 

https://www.corroprotec.com/

 

Time will tell if it's better than the typical unpowered sacrificial anode.

 

I can tell you that I no longer have the 'typical' stinky hot water from my private well system.

 

The little 'wall wart' supply that comes with the anode is a 15 milliamp constant current source.

 

The theory is sound and well proven in industry and ship building for a LONG time.  It works.  

 

https://www.specialistcastings.com/anodes/impressed-current-protection-anodes/#:~:text=Impressed Current Protection Anodes%2C (sometimes,metal structure to be protected.

 

Is it worth it with a water heater?  On city water, probably not, On my private well with stinky hot water, worth it's weight in titanium.

Absolutely!  Many commercial high end units come standard with a powered anode and you’re right... they rock!

[RandyLittrell 3,884]

1 minute ago, pullstart said:

good deal!  Macerating toilet, huh?  Those things discharge solids all demolished into 3/4” pipe!  Crazy stuff!

 

Its just for my wife who can't hold her water to make it upstairs to the bathroom.  It will probably never see solids! 

 

 

Randy

[RandyLittrell 3,884]

7 minutes ago, pullstart said:

If you have the chance to recipe this before stopping it down, typically the tank is installed before the water heater.  When the water heater recovers, by design the expanded hot water back feeds to the inlet.  This essentially creates an extra volume of hot water once a draw happens.  With it on the outlet, the buffer created makes a variable outcome.

 

You made me scratch my head, since I knew I plumbed it just as the instructions said. Sure enough, I went downstairs and looked and I did put it on the inlet side. Too much thinking has been going on in my feeble mind this week!! 

 

I didn't have a one before and I didn't even know you needed one, but they changed our systems a few years ago with one way valves at the meter so I had been getting some pipe hammering and some leaks I thought were caused by it. I just hope I have it set properly.

 

 

Randy

[Pullstart 62,922]

The proper setting is to match the air pressure in the bladder equal to your operating pressure.  This needs to be done before the water pressure is applied.  It’ll best equalize the bladder in the tank to allow expansion properly.

[RandyLittrell 3,884]

1 minute ago, pullstart said:

The proper setting is to match the air pressure in the bladder equal to your operating pressure.  This needs to be done before the water pressure is applied.  It’ll best equalize the bladder in the tank to allow expansion properly.

 

I did call the city and ask what our pressure is and bought the one that was in that range. I did not check the pressure in the tank before installing it. What should I do now then? 

 

 

Randy

[Pullstart 62,922]

One more last thing, I think.  @lynnmor the stink, if you can believe it is from hydrogen eating bacteria, found in well water.  As an anode breaks down, hydrogen gas is let off.  If the anode is depleting at a rapid pace, this is what causes the air bursts at a faucet if you have ever experienced that.  So anyway, the stink.  The tank has hydrogen, the well water has harmless bacteria who eat the hydrogen.  The stink is literally their feces.  Harmless, but nonetheless that’s the smell.  Many people will switch to aluminum or aluminum alloy (dubbed A-420) rods to “get rid of” the stink.  In theory, the anodes they have chosen are less likely to break down, making the tank more susceptible to corrosion.  The reality is that treating the well with bleach to kill the bacteria is the best way to go.... then keep the magnesium anode as it is the most sacrificial.  They are designed to last about 2 years and be inspected, then use the original as a guideline to how long the replacement lasts.

 

I THINK I’m done 

[Pullstart 62,922]

5 minutes ago, RandyLittrell said:

 

I did call the city and ask what our pressure is and bought the one that was in that range. I did not check the pressure in the tank before installing it. What should I do now then? 

 

 

Randy

if you shut the inlet water off, then open a faucet, you can bleed off all the water pressure in the house.  The tank should have a Schroeder valve to check it and adjust as needed like a tire.

[RandyLittrell 3,884]

1 minute ago, pullstart said:

if you shut the inlet water off, then open a faucet, you can bleed off all the water pressure in the house.  The tank should have a Schroeder valve to check it and adjust as needed like a tire.

 

Yes it does and I can! Thanks. 

 

 

 

Randy

[Pullstart 62,922]

3 minutes ago, RandyLittrell said:

 

Yes it does and I can! Thanks. 

 

 

 

Randy

not a problem!  I’m glad to help make your stuff last to it’s longest potential!

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

19 minutes ago, pullstart said:

This needs to be done before the water pressure is applied

 

And should really be checked every couple years.  The air DOES eventually migrate through the rubber membrane into the water side.  I typically see about 1 PSI pressure loss on the boiler system bladder tanks that I service (well, USED to service).

 

What I do (did) with boiler systems when I replaced a tank was to install a ball valve right off the system (and remove the handle and zip tie to a pipe so the homeowner couldn't shut it off by mistake) followed by a tee with a boiler drain, then the tank.

(there's a fancy three way valve that's sold for this purpose now a days.  I have one on my own system, it's da nutz!   https://www.supplyhouse.com/Watts-0386466-RBFF-1-2-Residential-Boiler-Fill-Fitting )

 

What this allowed one to do was isolate the tank from the system, bleed the pressure off with the drain, and check/set the proper pressure in the tank.  Then, just close the drain and open the valve an you're back on-line.

 

While you wouldn't need this on a water supply system, it is helpful to be able to isolate the tank, relieve the pressure on the water side, and set the pressure in the tank easy peasy.  If you don't add a means to do so you will likely never do it because it's too much of a PITA.

 

One or two PSI a year doesn't sound like much but a boiler system typically runs 15 PSI cold so it is a lot higher percentage than a water system that might run at 50-60 or more.  Still, it's a good idea to check them every couple few years.

 

The pressure tank on my private well system also loses about 2 PSI per year so that's on my list of tanks to service as well.

Because of this tank, I don't need an additional one on my water heater.  It does 'double duty'.

Edited February 3, 2021 by Jeff-C175

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

1 hour ago, pullstart said:

One more last thing, I think.  @lynnmor the stink,

 

I didn't notice if lynnmor mentioned that also, but I did.  maybe you meant to mention me and not Lynn?  I know about them sulfur and iron digesting bacteria!  My new well is nearly devoid of Iron, less than 1-2 ppm.  Didn't test for sulfur though but it's typically not a problem in these here parts.  Go deep enough (225') and you get good water with minimal iron.

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

1 hour ago, RandyLittrell said:

it does and I can!

 

Just keep in mind that a pressure reading on the air side with ANY pressure on the water side of the bladder inside the tank is not a true reading.  The air side of the tank should ideally be 'open' and close to atmospheric pressure.  So always check and adjust the tank with the water side as close as possible to atmospheric pressure as possible, i.e. 'open'

Edited February 3, 2021 by Jeff-C175

[Jeff-C175 7,202]

1 hour ago, pullstart said:

typically my go-to

 

I've bought a good number of big ticket items from them over the years.  Maybe a half dozen boilers, a dozen water heaters, and LOTS of sundry plumbing items.  Several of the boilers were delivered the next day, but then I'm pretty close to one of their warehouses in Monroe I believe.

[RandyLittrell 3,884]

5 hours ago, Jeff-C175 said:

 

Just keep in mind that a pressure reading on the air side with ANY pressure on the water side of the bladder inside the tank is not a true reading.  The air side of the tank should ideally be 'open' and close to atmospheric pressure.  So always check and adjust the tank with the water side as close as possible to atmospheric pressure as possible, i.e. 'open'

 

Now that I have a new shutoff valve where it comes in the basement, I can just shut it off and drain it at the low point!  Thanks! 

 

 

 

Randy

[RandyLittrell 3,884]

I am quite certain that no matter what project a guy needed to do, there are pro's here to help!! 

 

You guys have been great!! 

 

 

 

Randy