hydraulic line removal

[JohnD 145]

I stumbled across this blog from Misumi recently.  It has a good guide to torque for o-rings near the bottom: 

 

https://blog.misumiusa.com/5-things-you-should-know-about-o-ring-face-seal-fittings/

[Horse Newbie 7,069]

54 minutes ago, lynnmor said:

It sounds like the folks are giving you the information you need.  Now page up and review the photos posted to see what I meant about keeping the old hoses if possible,  Zeek used new hoses from Surplus Center and did a nice job, but he had an acre of room to work with, you will be very cramped for space.

@lynnmor Read you loud and clear on keeping the original hoses...what is your experience with the originals leaking between the brass and zinc as @pfrederi stated above?

I do plan on having a chat with @wheelhorseman to see if his hose kits are like the original, or close on size...or what advice he has to give...and you are dead on...space IS limited !

Edited January 25, 2021 by Horse Newbie

[Horse Newbie 7,069]

1 hour ago, WVHillbilly520H said:

Sorry I can't be of more help

@WVHillbilly520H...Hey man, I appreciate the response..still learning more and more about my 520H. 

It feels good to have support from all of you fellows.

Lets just say the last few months with all the issues I've corrected so far, 4 hours of "shakedown" time inspecting the neighborhood curb and gutters, and then tearing back in to fix this hydraulic leak(s)- I knew I had at least one, I have come to know the 520H very intimately !

[Zeek 2,286]

On 1/24/2021 at 3:33 PM, David414 said:

@Zeek beautiful job. Just trying to understand hydraulics, you used JIC hose fittings which are metal to metal sealing. According to the parts diagram for my 312-h, the sealing is by o-ring boss. Are we talking two different systems? I don't think this will work with my Eaton 1100? Thanks

Looks like you got your questions answered already. Mine was a Sunstand 1966 1276.

[Damien Walker 246]

Hi David,

 

As Lynnmor above says, it looks  like you're getting very good support, so there's little constructive I can add. Having just disturbed my 518H hoses to splice the power steering in, I'm ashamed to say I cannot identify the type of fittings. I have an excellent hydraulic fittings shop here and they identified the required threads and supplied new hoses and fittings to fit! Stupidly I should  have recorded the details for occasions such as this but sorry I didn't!

 

In practice, I doubt you will need much other than new o-rings....I think there's a lot of oil around and so the fittings don't usually seize, at least mine hadn't, despite the machine having been very badly looked after (stored outside with no cover - bad rust everywhere)...the hydraulic lines unscrewed easily. I took so long over my project, I didn't really have a clue as to where each hose fitted, but a quick look at the parts diagram and a look at the length and set in the hoses proved it rather easy to reassemble despite my power steering mod..it couldn't go together any other way. As mentioned though, the whole system remains untested so it remains to be seen what disasters await me!

 

Any decent hydraulic shop should be able sell you (or hopefully even give you) suitable blanking plugs which should screw onto the fittings. You can bung the ends of the pipes with paper or wrap in a plastic bag with an elastic band round *(that's what I did) but in  practice, they are easily dislodged and then you have the added hassle of making sure they are clean when you reassemble. Plastic screw in plugs are by far the best.

 

I can only therefore recommend that you do a full strip down. I did and I m very pleased I did....new paint everywhere, no rusty bits, clean hoses etc. I'd say that if you have the courage and capability to get as far as you already have, you'll have no difficulty with the hydraulics.

 

Not sure if anyone has mentioned this but the fittings, particularly on the ram are self aligning. I hadn't seen such things before in the UK and at first glance they appear broken or loose. They aren't, they are very clever design. When you tighten the nut down hard, the hose still flops about - I also have a C175 which is near identical in set up...never had a leak despite that also being an uncared for wreck when I bought it and it is still using the hoses WH fitted it with when it was new. The shaft seal on the valve is a different matter so I would recommend changing that when you have the system in pieces (unless there's no sign of a leak now, in which case it might better to leave well alone!).

 

I'm  just sorting the front wheels and seat for my 518H and then I should be able to spend some time on the engine (it's sound as far as I am aware, but just needs the interlock wiring checking) and then get the pump running and test my new installation. I'll post when I know it all works! Have you considered powder coat for any of your metal work? I started with 2-pack paint (good stuff but you need breathing equipment) but have recently started powder coating. It wasn't too expensive to get set up and with proper prep, it works well and gives a very durable finish.

[David414 289]

@Damien Walker  Thanks for the encouraging words. I plan on tackling the hydraulic removal this weekend. I am not familiar with powder coating. What does it take to set up and prep, and do you have an estimated cost to repaint your tractor?

[Damien Walker 246]

Hi David,

 

Prep for powder coating is much the same as for normal painting except that ideally, you need to get back to bare metal. If the item was originally powder coated, it is a devil  to remove and difficult to feather holes for repainting. The best method then is to burn the old coating off and then shot/sandblast to clean up. I had to get the professionals to do the bonnet and fender because they are too large for my set up. Cost over here for the two panels and the rear wheels was £120....not cheap but money well spent. I have done the small parts myself including the front wheels. You can burn the existing off with a blow lamp (nasty fumes so do it outside) and you need to be careful not to go too hot. I found that if you can get the paint literally sizzling, the sandblaster takes it off easily once it has cooled down.

 

You need: the electrostatic gun and power supply, a facility to hang the part up whilst you apply the powder, an air supply (small compressor) and an oven big enough to take the part. An ordinary domestic oven is fine (yours are bigger than ours I think!...Not wise to use the one in the home kitchen as Mrs David probably won't appreciate her cakes turning Wheel horse red)...the  powder cures at around 180C  (approx 360F). Basically you hang the part up, but connect it to the earth lead on the power supply. The gun charges the particles of powder and dusts them out over the part and they stick by electrostatic attraction. You then have get the part in the oven without knocking the powder off! 10 minutes in the oven and you're done. The finish is very tough and doesn't scratch easily as normal paint does and is available in loads of colours. It has one disadvantage and that is if the item lives outside....if the coating is damaged, water gets underneath and rots the part away without you knowing. Garden furniture, bird feeders and the like are good examples...if you can see the 'paint; coming off in slabs and the metal is rusting underneath, it's probably powder coat! My tractors live in a shed so should be fine. If you need to fill rust imperfections, you can do that (I didn't bother), but you have to find a filler that will withstand the powder baking temperature. It is possible to coat over the top of the existing finish if necessary too (again, provided it can withstand the powder baking temperature)....I have just done my front wheels this way. They are brand new but the tyre shop damaged the original powder coat. I sand blasted the wheels all over to provide a key and to smooth out  the damage, put them straight into the oven to heat up  and then powder coated them hot. As the metal is hot, the powder sticks because it melts on contact and this evens out problems caused by not having bare metal for the charged particles to cling on to. Eastwood in the US sell all the kit (ebay is cheaper I think) and they have a number of videos on youtube that explain the process well. Good quality paint properly applied with primer and under coat etc is fine of course, but I'm quite impressed with powder coat and will be doing more. Most garden equipment is finished this way because it is quick to do and tough. If you get the prep right, it should last well.....first time I've restored a tractor this way so I will find out how durable it actually is! The biggest advantage to me probably is the speed...starting with a prepped part it will take at least two whole days to wet paint (one day for undercoat, and one for top coat, assuming you're not going for a concours finish with multiple coats and rubbing down in between. It takes less than an hour to achieve the 'same' with powder coat....5mins to set up and spray the powder, 10mins to cure....and a while to cool down. Obviously the bigger and heavier the part, the longer it takes to warm up to curing temperature and equally longer to cool down. Each front wheel took me 30mins to do and I left them to cool over dinner.

 

Phew, did Leo Tolstoy ever restore tractors? I reckon I could rival him for long passages of literature!

 

Best of luck with your hydraulics, I'm sure you will be fine.

 

 

[Damien Walker 246]

Ohh yes, cost of the powder....it's very expensive and is 0nly sold in stupidly large quantities so it is wholly impractical for the amateur. However, there are many folks who sell their surplus powder on ebay. Cost in the UK is £10-25 per kg  (2.2lbs) which is fairly similar to an equivalent can of paint. 

 

What colour did I use? This is a very painful saga in itself. I understand that Toro red (I like it) is Pantone 186C. Unfortunately, because we are were part of the EU, Pantone colours are not common here and we use the German Origin RAL system (stands for REICHSAUSSCHUSS FÜR LIEFERBEDINGUNGEN or Empire Committee for Delivery Conditions) instead, and there is no direct equivalent colour. I looked Pantone 186C up on a conversion website and RAL3027 was identified. Be warned....RAL3027 is NOT a good match...it's pink! Yes I didn't check, but we all had a good laugh when I went to pick up the panels! I then tried RAL3001  - I was sent a pre-coated test swatch and it looked good. Unfortunately the same supplier then supplied the wrong powder and my panels came out orange! I then decided it probably would be too orange anyway even if they supplied the correct stuff. Final choice was UK Post Office Red (not a RAL colour, it's probably a British Standard) which is still a little on the bright side but it is acceptable (I think) but I'm still smiling, honest!

[Horse Newbie 7,069]

I'll try to get this thread back on topic...since 520H hydraulics is what I'm working on right now.

If you will take a look at pic 1, notice the spring between the washer and the retaining cap on the left end of the shaft that runs through the valve body...is this the spring that returns the valve to neutral, or is it part # 54 on pic 2 ?

Which of these springs work to return the valve to neutral, or do they both work together to keep the lift lever in neutral position ?

I know some of you guys that I tagged have said that you have never had your 520H hydraulic lift control valve apart, but I thought you might have knowledge of someone on Red Square that you could tag for me that may have some experience with this.

I have o- rings and other parts on the way from one of our vendors...

@WVHillbilly520H , @lynnmor , @wheelhorseman , @953 nut

Thanks,  Horse Newbie (Tim)

OK...FOR SOME REASON THE PICS FLIPPED...1 IS 2 AND 2 IS 1

Edited January 31, 2021 by Horse Newbie

[Handy Don 12,232]

Part 54's job is to keep a flexible tension on the linkage since it's length varies slightly when actuating the valve. The valve body itself contains the springs to return the valves to center. (There is no neutral on the lift control)

Remember that there is no float in the 520 lift. The lift stays where stopped by centering the valves.

Edited January 31, 2021 by Handy Don

[Damien Walker 246]

As far as I am aware, part 54 is just an anti rattle spring. (The 'make sure it's in neutral spring' is on the motion control lever, not the lift lever).

 

The valve is self biased to the middle position so the return springs are internal to the valve...I'm surprised there aren't two in the picture.

 

(Apologies, powder coat was way off topic!)

[wheelhorseman 3,211]

https://www.wheelhorseforum.com/files/file/45-lift-hydraulic-valve-and-cylinder-sm-810242r3pdf/?do=download&r=42631&confirm=1&t=1&csrfKey=2232b3fc38e92c09696033296bfe1f7b

[Handy Don 12,232]

12 minutes ago, wheelhorseman said:

https://www.wheelhorseforum.com/files/file/45-lift-hydraulic-valve-and-cylinder-sm-810242r3pdf/?do=download&r=42631&confirm=1&t=1&csrfKey=2232b3fc38e92c09696033296bfe1f7b

Lowell, I know the contruction of the cylinders/pistons varied over the years, but did their throw, pressure, and lift capacities change at all? What are their rated capacity and throw?

[wheelhorseman 3,211]

24 minutes ago, Handy Don said:

Lowell, I know the contruction of the cylinders/pistons varied over the years, but did their throw, pressure, and lift capacities change at all? What are their rated capacity and throw?

As far as I know they stayed the same and  operating psi is around 800

[Horse Newbie 7,069]

1 hour ago, Handy Don said:

Remember that there is no float in the 520 lift. The lift stays where stopped by centering the valves.

Thanks @Handy Don that is exactly the information that I was looking for...I don't always know the correct terminology for these mechanical systems, but I can usually get my point across and helpful people on Red Square like you and others can usually decipher what I say and give me an answer...the lift stays where it stops...

[Horse Newbie 7,069]

1 hour ago, Damien Walker said:

Apologies, powder coat was way off topic!)

Hey my friend, I was in no way taking a jab at you. You fellows knowledge, and willingness to share it is so valuable to me the last thing I would want to do is try to be smart-aleck with you.

And besides I and many others on here veer off topic.

I said "get back on topic" because I was kinda getting back to hydraulics after things had veered.

 

I may kid and joke with you guys, but I will never be a smart-aleck on purpose...

Edited January 31, 2021 by Horse Newbie

[Horse Newbie 7,069]

1 hour ago, wheelhorseman said:

https://www.wheelhorseforum.com/files/file/45-lift-hydraulic-valve-and-cylinder-sm-810242r3pdf/?do=download&r=42631&confirm=1&t=1&csrfKey=2232b3fc38e92c09696033296bfe1f7b

Thanks @wheelhorseman...I had found this like yesterday or so while doing research on the upcoming rebuild...The return to neutral spring I was talking about is called just a "return" spring on the model I have...just like a Victor, but mine is called a Danfoss.

[lynnmor 7,306]

Just for reference, here is the Dukes version:

 

[Horse Newbie 7,069]

Thanks @lynnmor...seem to be fairly simple.

Glad I read up on the valve body before I messed with things much

(Kept me from turning that allen head adjustment screw under the acorn nut)

 

I was able to determine that I was indeed missing the small screw and washer that holds the retainer cap  on the spool...that's why the spool traveled too far forward allowing the o- ring to come past the end of the bore in the valve body.

[Damien Walker 246]

15 hours ago, Horse Newbie said:

Hey my friend, I was in no way taking a jab at you. You fellows knowledge, and willingness to share it is so valuable to me the last thing I would want to do is try to be smart-aleck with you.

And besides I and many others on here veer off topic.

I said "get back on topic" because I was kinda getting back to hydraulics after things had veered.

 

I may kid and joke with you guys, but I will never be a smart-aleck on purpose...

No offence taken at all, but I WAS way off topic. Probably what I should have done is found a thread on powder coating (there's at least one) or created one and pointed David to it. I'm a newbie at this forum lark and I am still learning the best ways to join in...and I think I could have handled this one better. It's great to find a forum like this and great to share ideas and techniques and so on.

[Horse Newbie 7,069]

So last night I rebuilt my hydraulic lift valve body and my cylinder on the 1994 520H...got most of the tractor put back together... Just need to paint the cylinder before I reinstall it.

 

Edited February 3, 2021 by Horse Newbie

[Horse Newbie 7,069]

So this evening after work I went out to my shop and painted my 520H hydraulic lift cylinder Rustoleum Regal Red...that's what color my tractor is as far as I'm concerned.

And I put a few more parts back on...

Got a question if anybody can answer...

@WVHillbilly520H @lynnmor @953 nut @ebinmaine @DennisThornton @squonk

The lift bar ( I'll call it ) has a chain that goes up to what may be called the rock shaft ( not sure of name ).

Well if that is what it is, then how do you guys get "down pressure" like I hear you all talking about with a chain there ?

Is that where I would replace the chain with a 1/4 inch flat bar ( the long one ) ?

 

Oh, and I moved my lift control lever back and forth and since putting the small screw in the end of the spool shaft that holds the retainer cup on/ in place, my lever and lift valve does " return to neutral" even though technically these valves supposedly doesn't do the "return to neutral" thing.

Between the spring in the valve body on the end of the spool shaft and the spring on the linkage, that causes the spool shaft to return to neutral...did not act this way until I replaced the small screw that holds the retainer cup.

Edited February 5, 2021 by Horse Newbie

[Handy Don 12,232]

Yes, this is the time!

[ebinmaine 67,500]

7 minutes ago, Horse Newbie said:

how do you guys get "down pressure" like I hear you all talking about with a chain there ?

Is that where I would replace the chain with a 1/4 inch flat bar ( the long one ) ?

That's the one.  

 

Be careful how you handle that though. 

 

Most of us only use the solid link on manual lift tractors. 

If you out one on a hydro IMHO it May be a good improvement. .... BUT!!! You'll need to learn to be very aware of your surface and constantly raise/lower the plow a hair or three. 

That's why I stayed with the big log splitter controller for the Charger hydro project. It should offer better control.  

 

 

[Horse Newbie 7,069]

2 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

That's the one.  

 

Be careful how you handle that though. 

 

Most of us only use the solid link on manual lift tractors. 

If you out one on a hydro IMHO it May be a good improvement. .... BUT!!! You'll need to learn to be very aware of your surface and constantly raise/lower the plow a hair or three. 

That's why I stayed with the big log splitter controller for the Charger hydro project. It should offer better control.  

 

 

I'll definitely get more opinions off the Square before I replace that chain with a solid bar.

Down here in NC if it ever snows...

I prolly wouldn't even need down pressure...the weight of the dozer/ snow blade would probably be heavy enough to keep the blade against the concrete with 2 inches of Old Man Winter's fury ( I like those laughing smiley faces )