What’s with the hype on the mid mount grader blades?

[peter lena 8,631]

@Crmaverick  think , mechanical and ground engagement is the key ,  very simple , obviousely a front dozer blade  has an easy hand lever swing , but the mid tractor , down force , traction engagement , is the deal .  pete 

[Rick3478 428]

1 hour ago, ebinmaine said:

 

What's your thoughts and impressions on the rear mounted version bring used on a manual lift vs a hydro? 

 

I've read/heard multiple times the rear blades tend to dig in pretty hard if not well controlled but a mid mount is easier to drag over the material.

 

Actually I think the hydro would be harder to get repeatable fine adjustment.  With hand lift, use the dial knob to set depth and be sure to have a good solid lift link, the dog chain mower lift is too wimpy for this job.  And don't try to do it all at once, make several passes taking a little off each time.

[Lane Ranger 10,968]

8 hours ago, ebinmaine said:

 

What's your thoughts and impressions on the rear mounted version bring used on a manual lift vs a hydro? 

 

I've read/heard multiple times the rear blades tend to dig in pretty hard if not well controlled but a mid mount is easier to drag over the material. 

 

 

rear  mount is  great on gravel, sand loose direct using hydro.   It it harder in compacted soil being moved but depends on height/depth.   The mid mount does tend to bounce a little but that is generally why we place our feet on top the blade when working it. 
 

 

Edited July 12, 2023 by Lane Ranger

[ebinmaine 67,540]

1 hour ago, Lane Ranger said:

place our feet on top the blade

My little Trina person stands right on it. 

 

 

 

 

3 hours ago, Rick3478 said:

use the dial knob

 

I forget that's there on stock tractors. 

I left it off of mine because I never use it.  

[JoeM 7,874]

5 hours ago, WHX?? said:

Little bit of help with a Brinly back blade

Okay on loose stuff. 

looking at the thread made me remember I have this heavy duty dozer blade I made up 25 years ago and used it on a B100

1/2 inch blade man u al turning. attached to a rear snow plow bracket. worked great.

should have taken it to the show ands sold it, I also have a snow blade that goes on the frame in place of the heavy dozer blade. the frame is in the background of the second pic.

[Handy Don 12,232]

On 7/11/2023 at 9:21 PM, Rick3478 said:

The tilt feature is your feet pushing one side down.

 

Simplicity (Allis-Chalmers) had an optional stirrup bracket (red arrow) for their blade to make this easier. It’s on the one I picked up last year. (Just remember that transferring your weight to the blade takes weight off the rear wheels giving traction!)

 

With the Big Show and a family vacation behind me, refurbishing it as a mid-mount blade for my 854 has finally has made it to the top of my projects list!  I am trying to figure out a simple mechanism for unlocking/locking the rotation without having to get off the seat and reach under the tractor. Right now, the lock bolt (blue arrow) goes through top and bottom plates on both the plow bracket and the frame.

 

The WH single-pin mechanisms don’t translate well to this blade’s setup which splits the forces onto both sides of the frame and bracket members. A single, sliding pin here would need a lot of travel and some sort of guide for alignment--together, they would probably not leave enough clearance to the underside of the tractor when lifting the blade. That said, I'm thinking short pins--one above and one below--actuated simultaneously by cable with spring returns--possibly internal to the frame. Another thought is notching the blade bracket and adding a retracting locking bar on the frame, again cable actuated. Considering the forces involved, the pins/bar will have to be quite sturdy.

Any ideas out there?

 

Last note: like @squonk, I plan to adapt this to the 854 while retaining it’s usability on a Simplicity or Allis.

 

 

[Rick3478 428]

1 hour ago, Handy Don said:

 

Simplicity (Allis-Chalmers) had an optional stirrup bracket (red arrow) for their blade to make this easier. It’s on the one I picked up last year. (Just remember that transferring your weight to the blade takes weight off the rear wheels giving traction!)

 

With the Big Show and a family vacation behind me, refurbishing it as a mid-mount blade for my 854 has finally has made it to the top of my projects list!  I am trying to figure out a simple mechanism for unlocking/locking the rotation without having to get off the seat and reach under the tractor. Right now, the lock bolt (blue arrow) goes through top and bottom plates on both the plow bracket and the frame.

 

The WH single-pin mechanisms don’t translate well to this blade’s setup which splits the forces onto both sides of the frame and bracket members. A single, sliding pin here would need a lot of travel and some sort of guide for alignment--together, they would probably not leave enough clearance to the underside of the tractor when lifting the blade. That said, I'm thinking short pins--one above and one below--actuated simultaneously by cable with spring returns--possibly internal to the frame. Another thought is notching the blade bracket and adding a retracting locking bar on the frame, again cable actuated. Considering the forces involved, the pins/bar will have to be quite sturdy.

Any ideas out there?

 

Last note: like @squonk, I plan to adapt this to the 854 while retaining it’s usability on a Simplicity or Allis.

 

 

Maybe coloring outside the lines a bit, but how about throwing the pin away and make it infinitely adjustable, maybe with a rack-and-pinion of some kind or even an electric jackscrew?

 

[Handy Don 12,232]

1 hour ago, Rick3478 said:

 

Maybe coloring outside the lines a bit, but how about throwing the pin away and make it infinitely adjustable, maybe with a rack-and-pinion of some kind or even an electric jackscrew?

 

What lines? 

Actually, there are lines--the forces involved. A couple hundred pounds of force out at one end of the blade translates into over thousand at that bolt just 3” out from the pivot pin. That, plus the potential for shock loads dictates the need for a very strong lock. If this were for the 518-H++ that I just upgraded to have remote hydraulics, I’d have a cylinder controlling the rotation in a heartbeat! Maybe I should be searching for an HY unit for the 854!

Still, you have given me the idea that perhaps a lever extending the plow bracket would get the force down to a manageable number over the relatively small range of motion needed and make an actuator feasible. Hmmmm. Time for some math and research!

Thanks!

[c-series don 8,708]

@Handy Don After meeting you at the show and seeing your engineering and fabrication skills with your front mount flail mower, I have no doubt that whatever you do next will be exceptional. 

[Rick3478 428]

On 7/19/2023 at 10:00 PM, Handy Don said:

What lines? 

Actually, there are lines--the forces involved. A couple hundred pounds of force out at one end of the blade translates into over thousand at that bolt just 3” out from the pivot pin.

 

 

True, but if you abandon the position pin or bolt being that close to the pivot, you can pick a mounting point with better leverage and lower forces.  Trade out force for distance until you find something workable.

[Handy Don 12,232]

49 minutes ago, Rick3478 said:

 

True, but if you abandon the position pin or bolt being that close to the pivot, you can pick a mounting point with better leverage and lower forces.  Trade out force for distance until you find something workable.

 

On 7/19/2023 at 10:00 PM, Handy Don said:

Still, you have given me the idea that perhaps a lever extending the plow bracket would get the force down to a manageable number over the relatively small range of motion needed and make an actuator feasible. Hmmmm. Time for some math and research!

Thanks!

Yep, as I posted 

So far research on moderately priced electric actuators shows 600-900 N static force limits. 900 N x 0.22 lb/N ==> 198 lbs. To balance a 198 lb. force at the end of the blade it’d require a 21” lever, which would extend to around the front axle. At that length, I would need a 14” throw on the actuator (7” on either side of straight) to get the same 20º blade angles. Actuators move at about 0.4” per second so a full change of angle would take over 30 seconds. Not looking promising.

Edited July 21, 2023 by Handy Don

[ebinmaine 67,540]

1 hour ago, Handy Don said:

full change of angle would take over 30 seconds. ... 

You could learn to live within the parameters and limitations of that timing. But.. when you really wanted it to move fast that 30 seconds would feel like 2 hours.

 

On the plus side you could take a quick snooze and catch up with your sleep.  

 

[Handy Don 12,232]

1 minute ago, ebinmaine said:

You could learn to live within the parameters and limitations of that timing. But.. when you really wanted it to move fast that 30 seconds would feel like 2 hours.

 

On the plus side you could take a quick snooze and catch up with your sleep.  

 

I think that once the blade is raised and the lock is released, rotating it with my feet in the stirrups will take two seconds! So for now, I am focusing on a strong, reliable, easy-to-use release. I have a preliminary design in the works.

[ebinmaine 67,540]

4 minutes ago, Handy Don said:

rotating it with my feet in the stirrups will take two seconds

 

That's probably the only thing that Trina might wish she could change.

For her to change blade angle, you can do it from on the tractor, but you have to be a bit of a contortionist...

 

[Handy Don 12,232]

14 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

That's probably the only thing that Trina might wish she could change.

For her to change blade angle, you can do it from on the tractor, but you have to be a bit of a contortionist...

 

Hmmm. Can you send me some pics and dimensions of the release mechanism? I have the IPL from that blade already. I might have an idea or two. Not urgent.

[Brockport Bill 1,662]

learned from my Dad - "use the right tool for the job" --- i have used both the plow and the grader and while there is overlap of capabilities the fact is each has its advantages depending on the task --- plow can do some things grader isn't best at, and visa versa -- but certainly for grading leveling the mid mount is a jewel.