chrome rings experiences, break in time

[Greentored 3,216]

30+ years building engines but very little experience with chrome rings.  It appears Kohler used them, and most aftermarket overhaul kits have them, so the hopped up K321 in Hoss got a set.

  Guessing 25 hours on Hoss now, and it still puts out some blue smoke on startup and acceleration. Its making all the power haha and using VERY little oil, it's just annoying. No plans to tear apart.

Would like to hear some personal experiences with chrome rings and break in times.

 

 

[Pullstart 62,923]

Bummer to hear about the puff puff.  Somewhere there’s a story of a guy building an engine from the parts sales market at the big show, rusty jug and all but nice chrome rings. By the end of the weekend it was running smooth and clean with no puff.  Hearing that story made me a believer.  Knowing how much work you have into Hoss’ engine, I wonder what’s up...

[bc.gold 3,403]

Chrome require a unique cylinder finish to help seating.

 

About Proper Break-In Procedure

 

 

 

 

[WHX?? 48,839]

I have the same problem on a 241 that I believe the rings did not seat properly. 10 over bore job.  I didn't run the motor under a heavy load as recommended for the first hours after the build so I blame it on that. Mike @prondzy says hook  a fresh motor up to a plow and work it and I believe him. 

[bc.gold 3,403]

Credits, Billy NY
 

 

Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 5:38 am    Post subject: Caterpillar Part No.7F5225 Break-in Powder
Since there have been discussions of this, I went and looked it up in the stacks of manuals in my collection for old caterpillar tractors and its as follows: Besides honing or etching the cylinder liners, a third method has been used to hasten the seating of new rings to worn liners. This method uses 7F5225 Break-in Powder. The procedure is as follows: After assembling and starting the engine, loosen the air cleaner to allow a gap between the flange and the inlet manifold. Rune the engine at about 800 RPM and allow the powder to be sucked slowly through the gap and into the engine. Use 1 1/4 teaspoonfuls of powder per cylinder and then tighten the air cleaner. Run the engine at 800 RPM for thirty minutes, and it is then ready for service. This method of break-in has been used successfully when facilities were not available for honing or etching liners. It has also been successful when, for some unknown reason, new rings and liners have failed to break-in in a reasonable length of time. If the first powder treatment is not effective, a second one may be. However, if the second treatment is not effective, a thorough investigation should be made to determine the cause of oil consumption. This was taken from the Caterpillar Serviceman's Reference Book for Diesel Engines (5 3/4" BORE 4-CYLINDER) D8800 Industrial, D8800 Electric Set, D8800 Marine, and D7 Tractor. Form FE031238-01 The book is a product of Midland Press, whom was printing for CAT at the time, I would need an original book to determine the publish dates, however I believe this applied to the era of their naturally aspirated engines like the D8800 which was in production from the 30's to the mid 50's, with about 50,000 units produced for tractors alone. This should dispel any rumors or mis information about the use of Break-in powder by Caterpillar.

 

 

[pacer 3,174]

A bit OT, but about rings......

 

Some years ago I bought a decent looking D200 for $200. Was complete just needed tires, and, had been inside. Decided I'd better check out the big twin before I got too deep in it. After getting the fuel system sorted, it started right up and sitting there in the shop was doing great. Aired tires up and they were holding enough to do a quick test drive .... well, about 2 mins after starting around the yard it started smoking like crazy!

Back to the shop, pull heads, looks OK, pull engine, open er up and pop out a piston ---- yeow!! right away saw the ring gaps were 'stacked' ... in the bottom side of the cyl!! pulled other side and same thing! 

And the odd thing was they were .020 over and looked very fresh, so what the??? Near as I could tell someone had a rebuild/rebore on it and had put the pistons in without bothering to alternate the ring gaps!

To be on the safe side I got new pistons and rings and made VERY sure the rings were correctly spaced. That was some 5 years ago and that tractor is my 'go to' tractor and ... of course it dont smoke.

[oilwell1415 563]

I don't know about a tractor, but in a car it can take 10,000 miles for chrome rings to fully seat.  At 60mph that's around 165 hours.  A working tractor should be turning more rpms than a car going down the road, so maybe less than that.  But it does take a long time.

[305 380]

Chevy used Bonami in 1955 to solve this problem in the new 265

[ebinmaine 67,717]

I don't have any direct experience with this except for the only engine I've ever built was a 350 that was kind of on the loose side. 

I was specifically told NOT to put chrome rings in it.

[bc.gold 3,403]

2 hours ago, ebinmaine said:

I don't have any direct experience with this except for the only engine I've ever built was a 350 that was kind of on the loose side. 

I was specifically told NOT to put chrome rings in it.

 

Did you ask why.

 

Chrome rings will out perform and outlast cast,

 

The only situation where you could not use chrome rings, motor cycles for example  aluminum cylinder which was factory chromed on the inside diameter.

 

http://www.engineprofessional.com/articles/EPQ317_30-34.pdf

 

Edited January 18, 2021 by bcgold

[ebinmaine 67,717]

1 minute ago, bcgold said:

 

Did you ask why.

 

Chrome rings will out perform and outlast cast,

 

The only situation where you could not use chrome rings, motor cycles for example  aluminum cylinder which was factory chromed on the inside diameter.

 

http://www.engineprofessional.com/articles/EPQ317_30-34.pdf

 

Mind you this was nearly 30 years ago and I had very limited knowledge...

 

The engine I had was in spec on 6 of 8 cylinders with a couple that were at max or even a tad over for standard rings. 

 

Advice was to use cast rings so they'd seat faster. 

I wasn't planning on keeping it more than 20K miles. 

[prondzy 3,881]

Kohlers, i run them unloaded no belts, for 1 hr @3600 rpm. Dump the oil put in fresh. Next 5hrs run loaded hard (pulling a plow, mowing,...3600rpm get it hot, the heat seats the rings. Then change oil after the 5 hrs and run like normal.

 

FYI if you run mulit-weight oil you are more likely to burn oil, its stated in the kohler manual.

[Stepney 2,325]

6 hours ago, 305 said:

Chevy used Bonami in 1955 to solve this problem in the new 265

 

A very popular trick in the older snowmobiles too, I used it on many a Hirth after a debatably shabby overhaul

[Zeek 2,286]

Find out what rings Toyota is using. I have a 2005 Lexus with 180,000 that I change every 7K on synthetic. It uses ZERO oil between changes and doesn't smoke.

[tom2p 2,394]

8 hours ago, bcgold said:

 

The only situation where you could not use chrome rings, motor cycles for example  aluminum cylinder which was factory chromed on the inside diameter.

 

http://www.engineprofessional.com/articles/EPQ317_30-34.pdf

 

yes - I believe that's what I recall 

 

chrome rings are not spec'd with nickel plated (Nikasil or similar) and hard chrome plated liners 

 

( both Nikasil and chrome plated liners are ideal for off road motorcycles - keep the air filter clean and you get double top end  life compared to a standard cylinder )

 

Edited January 19, 2021 by tom2p

[tom2p 2,394]

4 hours ago, Zeek said:

Find out what rings Toyota is using. I have a 2005 Lexus with 180,000 that I change every 7K on synthetic. It uses ZERO oil between changes and doesn't smoke.

same with the Honda's we've owned 

 

had at least one Honda  / Acura car / SUV sitting in the driveway since 1983 - eight total 

 

no oil burned - and no oil leaks 

 

Edited January 19, 2021 by tom2p

[bc.gold 3,403]

1 hour ago, tom2p said:

yes - I believe that's what I recall 

 

chrome rings are not spec'd with nickel plated (Nikasil or similar) and hard chrome plated liners 

 

( both Nikasil and chrome plated liners are ideal for off road motorcycles - keep the air filter clean and you get double top end  life compared to a standard cylinder )

 

 

My kids grew up on Honda Z50's when my son outgrew the 50 wanted another larger bike so went on a hunt and located a dealer that had a Kawasaki KDX 80 with a seized piston.

 

The perfect project, once the cylinder was off took it into Mongoose in Coquitlam, who bored the cylinder then installed a Wiseco sleeve, the piston and rod were replaced with the same brand of parts.

 

Performed some magic on the ports, that paid off biggly, his air cooled would leave the liquids eating his dust.

 

He had no trouble keep the pace to my Can-Am 175, since moving to Manitoba have found a 250 Can-Am sitting in a barn - One owner bike and it's not all beat up, I didn't think the owner would sell but had to ask.

 

Mongoose now has the expertise and equipment to re-chrome cylinders.

 

Edited January 19, 2021 by bcgold

[Greentored 3,216]

Thanks fellas!  

@bcgold i finished off with 280 grit stones, slightly 'rougher' than the 400/red scotch brite (yep!) I do on standard moly rings. Hopefully was coarse enough, wondering if I should've gone 220.

Research shows the same thing you guys confirmed- gotta load it to seat em, and this thing is hard to make 'grunt', it just spins the tires. I did hook a plow on it a couple times and yank it through the garden. Been thinking about whipping up some kind of 'sled', tossing a couple engine blocks on it and dragging it around for an afternoon, and even thought about throwing it in the 1277 and letting the hydro load it for a couple work sessions.

Read a lot about the Bon Ami trick too- scary, but proven!

Whatever the 'fix', I will update. At this point my concern would be if things have already glazed, then its game over and would need to be ripped down, honed, and tried again.

Edited January 19, 2021 by Greentored

[WHX?? 48,839]

I may have missed something here .... what is this Bonami trick?

What flavor of rings did you use Green? I know a couple guys that don't use the aftermarket rings that come with the rebuild kits and opt for Kohlers. 

What rings do you use in your builds  @richmondred01?

47 minutes ago, Greentored said:

hard to make 'grunt', it just spins the tires.

I hear ya there too, The R-4s I put on  were not the best tire selection for traction in sand country here. I was going for the cool factor! 

[richmondred01 2,237]

14 minutes ago, WHX24 said:

I may have missed something here .... what is this Bonami trick?

What flavor of rings did you use Green? I know a couple guys that don't use the aftermarket rings that come with the rebuild kits and opt for Kohlers. 

What rings do you use in your builds  @richmondred01?

I hear ya there too, The R-4s I put on  were not the best tire selection for traction in sand country here. I was going for the cool factor! 

If the customer wants Kohler I use Kohler if they want stens I use stens. 

I will put in whatever the customer wants and is willing to pay for. 

For my own engines I use stens. I’ve never had an issue with them.

yes chrome rings take longer to seat. Also add 2 ounces of zinc additive with oil. So 2 quarts 14 ounces of 30 weight and 2 ounces of zinc additive. (Most oil no longer contain zinc) 

Run the engine at normal governed speed, don’t let idle for any length of time, dump oil after 2 hours of use and replace again using zinc additive.

Also retorque the head after the engine has run for 2 hours. Let it cool down first. 
Change the oil every 15-20 hours and you are good to go. 
That’s just what I do. It works for me and I’ve, knock on wood, never had an issue. 

[WHX?? 48,839]

2 minutes ago, richmondred01 said:

If the customer wants Kohler I use Kohler if they want stens I use stens. 

Thanks good way to approach it. What's your personal thoughts on the quality difference? 

I do have the zinc add. Due for an oil change anyway.  Will give it a try but fear it may be too late 

1 hour ago, Greentored said:

my concern would be if things have already glazed

[lynnmor 7,316]

16 minutes ago, WHX24 said:

 

I do have the zinc add. Due for an oil change anyway.  Will give it a try but fear it may be too late 

 

 

The zinc is an anti-wear additive used to protect engine parts.  Break-in is a wear process to get the parts to mate or smooth.  The trick is to use enough anti-wear additive to prevent damage to parts that may be too tight or have surfaces that are not mating well.  So adding zinc now will lengthen the break-in time, but that should not be of much concern.

[richmondred01 2,237]

[Greentored 3,216]

2 hours ago, WHX24 said:

I may have missed something here .... what is this Bonami trick?

What flavor of rings did you use Green? I know a couple guys that don't use the aftermarket rings that come with the rebuild kits and opt for Kohlers. 

 

Stens rings, straight Valvoline VR1 racing 10/30.

 

The Bon Ami trick- basically, buy a box of it, dump it down the carb with the engine running.  Supposedly the mild abrasive will (help) seat rings. Yeah, I know- scary!  However, the general consensus seems to be much more positive than negative....

[WHX?? 48,839]

You guys talking this stuff? If so yah... scary 

Bon Ami Powder Cleanser | Bon Ami

 

19 hours ago, prondzy said:

FYI if you run mulit-weight oil you are more likely to burn oil, its stated in the kohler manual.

I must have read right by that one Mike. Any idea on the theory behind it? 

 

This is the stuff I have but I don't think it mentions used as a break in add. 

Amazon.com: Hy-per Lube by Rislone ZDDP Supplement (4405-6PK): Automotive