Metallic whine from 310-8

[BeninCT 451]

Just got it today and it all works as it should but there is a sound from the rear end a little like a car low on power steering fluid.  Like a metallic whine while moving.  Gear oil is light brown indicating moisture contamination so will drain and prob just flush it through with a couple oil changes rather than the diesel flush.  

Think clean fluid will solve the sound or is it normal or what?  LOVE this tractor and need to maintain it as someone has for the last 25 years... its mint.

 

Here is a pic of it but didn’t take a shot of the diff.  It’s and 8 speed standard for the model. 

[WHX?? 48,834]

As I mentioned on your welcome thread yes change that fluid.  Jack the front up to get some oil out that's in front of a hump in the middle. Jack the rear up and and check the wheel bearings for any up and down play. check the tightness of the wheel hubs and the input pully. Fender pan comes off with just a few more bolts for better inspection. 

[ebinmaine 67,703]

If you find a loose bearing or whatever no worries. These horses are super easy to repair. 

[BeninCT 451]

3 minutes ago, WHX24 said:

As I mentioned on your welcome thread yes change that fluid.  Jack the front up to get some oil out that's in front of a hump in the middle. Jack the rear up and and check the wheel bearings for any up and down play. check the tightness of the wheel hubs and the input pully. Fender pan comes off with just a few more bolts for better inspection. 

 

Yes I saw thank you for posting.  Will do all of that tomorrow and report back.  Thinking I should run it for a while to warm it up before draining.  I also have a vacuum pump that does a great job of sucking fluids out- might combine that with a drain to make sure I get as much of the contaminated stuff out.  I looked quickly and think the shift boot is good but will really clean it out and check tomorrow as well.

 

Thanks vm 

[peter lena 8,647]

ben, I think a couple of oil changes  over a short period , would be most beneficial ,  is there a place near by to drive it ?  found that to be the best helper to really  stir things up and also warm up the oil before dumping it out.. make a point to use both hi and low ranges , change them often  , spend time in reverse , change that shift boot. also put some time on the oil to drain and fresh oil , you should start to hear a difference as the crud gets cleaned out . picture the gear oil like a waterfall spraying all over the gear set , and cleaning things out. good luck with it , let us know , pete  

[WHX?? 48,834]

Yes best listen to to peter lena ... he is the lubrication police around here. You will never have a squeaky wheel you listen to him. We suspect everything around his ranch is quiet as a church mouse and his door hinges have grease zerks! 

Edited January 9, 2021 by WHX24

[BeninCT 451]

4 hours ago, ebinmaine said:

If you find a loose bearing or whatever no worries. These horses are super easy to repair. 

 

is there a tear down rebuild tutuorial on this transaxle anywhere?  Feel like I have seen a YouTube video maybe but not sure. 

Thank you 

[BeninCT 451]

4 hours ago, peter lena said:

ben, I think a couple of oil changes  over a short period , would be most beneficial ,  is there a place near by to drive it ?  found that to be the best helper to really  stir things up and also warm up the oil before dumping it out.. make a point to use both hi and low ranges , change them often  , spend time in reverse , change that shift boot. also put some time on the oil to drain and fresh oil , you should start to hear a difference as the crud gets cleaned out . picture the gear oil like a waterfall spraying all over the gear set , and cleaning things out. good luck with it , let us know , pete  

 

That’s what I was thinking- think I could use some cheap oil for the first couple then settle into something better?  Not sure what oil is recommended but I think I read 80W-90?  Not sure what oil costs but its only 2 gallons so prob just use the right stuff so any residual will all be the same.

 

I have a little trailer full of junk I could run around the yard (maybe put my kids in it too- they love it) to warm it up.  It’s in a heated garage so it will start at 50 rather than 30 like outdoor temps. As long as that whine isnt some well known bearing failure I will just hope to run it out with oil changes.

[1995 520H+96+97 937]

Remove the right side belt cover to check drive belt idler pulley.

[JoeM 7,874]

When you have it up on the stands try all the gears and listen closely to were the noise source is coming from. Not sure if bearing or gear whine. 

Diesel works fine as a flush. Motor oil too. I just think 90W doesn't get the entire case covered. If you have access to a magnetic drain plug use it and it will grab metal. 

Grab a mason jar and when you dump the oil catch a pint or so the run it through a good white paper towel and look at the debris. Hoping to see just case rust and not shiny bearing or gear material. 

Now if you can listen two other machines and make a comparison. My son has a 312-8 re-powered to 16HP. It has a distinct 3 gear whine. Kind of low pitch gear noise. Drained Flushed and refilled been running 10 years no issues.  I had an other 8 speed that just loud. Replaced transmission and the old one the bearings on the axle were rusted. 

A mild whine could be okay.

 

[ebinmaine 67,703]

6 hours ago, BeninCT said:

read 80W-90?  Not sure what oil costs but its only 2 gallons

Transmission capacity is 2 QUARTS. 

 

I use the cheapest possible 80W90 I can find. These Transmissions are VERY tolerant. No tiny orifices. No high heat. Very little non ferrous metal. No long term high pressure areas. 

It's basic 60s vintage technology that worked so it was never changed. 

 

1 hour ago, JoeM said:

Diesel works fine as a flush. *******

 

. I just think *** doesn't get the entire case covered

 

Use diesel or K1 if possible. It's MUCH thinner and has better cleansing possibilities. 

 

1 hour ago, JoeM said:

MAGNETIC DRAIN PLUG use it and it will grab metal. 

Grab a mason jar and when you dump the oil catch a pint or so the run it through a good white paper towel and look at the debris. Hoping to see just case rust and NOT SHINY BEARING OR GEAR MATERIAL

 

Good info there. 

 

 

7 hours ago, BeninCT said:

 

is there a tear down rebuild tutuorial on this transaxle anywhere?  Feel like I have seen a YouTube video maybe but not sure. 

Thank you 

 

At the top of the Transmission Section and also in the Information area there several great videos by our own @stevasaurus. 

 

Several of us have torn in to more than one transmission so there's plenty of help. 

 

Your biggest challenge is likely to be removing the HUBS. 

It's important to use the correct puller to do this. NOT a standard 3 jaw. 

I use an old hub to set up as the puller. I can take pics later if you like. 

 

It's a standard hand tools general knowledge tear down and reassembly after that. 

 

 

[71_Bronco 1,072]

I just used basic gear oil from Walmart when I changed mine. Seems to work okay for me. I think I went synthetic, but I'd have to check the bottle to be sure.

[BeninCT 451]

@JoeM all great points- will do today hopefully. I think the noise is in 3rd so that is comforting.   Thx

 

@1995 520H+96+97 will do- only thing I haven’t really looked at on it yet.  Still on our first date 

 

@ebinmaine thanks!  I wrote 2 gallons because I think I will buy 2 gallons and flush it out 4x- suspect I would find out quick that 2 gallons doesnt fit! Hehe.  Thanks again for taking the time to help me here.  Edit to add this link to the YT video of the transmission work- looks like user name VinsRJ who seems to have a bunch of other WH videos online too.  

 

Edited January 10, 2021 by BeninCT

[ebinmaine 67,703]

2 minutes ago, BeninCT said:

Thanks again for taking the time to help me here

That's what we're here for. 

 

Just keep asking questions...

 

[953 nut 55,333]

8 hours ago, BeninCT said:

 

is there a tear down rebuild tutuorial on this transaxle anywhere?  Feel like I have seen a YouTube video maybe but not sure. 

Thank you 

 

[tom2p 2,394]

my guess is some Wheel Horse manual trans are louder than others (?) - so maybe there is no issue (?)
 

the transmission noise from my 312-8 is fairly loud - been that way since I got it back in mid/late 90's ... never sat outside or had water in the trans 

 

 

the trans noise from my 704 is very loud - in reverse it sounds like a mid-60's 4wd truck in reverse  ... ( also never had water in the trans )

the idler pulley was mentioned above

 

worn idler pulley can sometimes make more noise when tractor is idling in neutral - had one that made a howling / ringing type noise for years ... finally replaced it with a HD pulley with a bearing (instead of OEM bushed pulley) ... cost was minimal - $12 shipped or something like that 

 

( thank you Garry ! )

 

Edited January 10, 2021 by tom2p

[peter lena 8,647]

BEN, think you are getting the info that you want, would not think you are in the tear down zone , just a thorough flush out and refill with fresh fluid will do it. after its done regularly check that oil for a color change , and keep it fresh . I  typically do not wait for a lubricant to " fail  " to change it , but rather keep it just starting to change , an then change it. the condition of your horse says something about the previous owner , you are still in the ,baseline maintenance phase, be thorough with it , and you will be good . glad you are on board , pete 

[BeninCT 451]

@peter lena agreed-  I have a boat with a pair of diesels and am fanatic about the maintenance so this will be fun and easy compared to that.   Just don’t know anything about it or what its supposed to sound like etc. so wanted to be sure I wasn’t damaging it by running it.  WIll do fluids and investigate belt drive today and report back.  Thanks.

[c-series don 8,730]

Just a quick thought, if you have a torpedo/ blast style space heater I’d run it from a few feet away pointing at the transmission until the case is good and warm. That will definitely help thin the gear oil for removal. 

[peter lena 8,647]

BEN,  while you are on related drivetrain points , do a total clutch linkage related , LUBRICATION VERIFACATION , usually totally ignored , when used / engaged  , it should work without effort and be very smooth in engagement. pay attention to tension spring area , and related shaft points , aerosol lubricant , will probably cause , rust run out , simple basic maintenance, pete  

[Handy Don 12,250]

16 hours ago, peter lena said:

drive it ?  found that to be the best helper to really  stir things up and also warm up the oil before dumping it out

Hey @peter lena, looking for "lube expert" insight on two things that seem to be commonly accepted--warming up the oil before draining and draining quickly after driving it around.

 

Isn't the multi-grade composition of the oil supposed to keep its "runny-ness" consistent across its designated temperature range? Why does warming matter as long as the oil's temp is within its correct range?

 

I get the driving around and playing all the gears part to make sure its been well circulated within the mechanism. But I wonder if after that, shouldn't the lube be allowed to "drip down" inside the transmission to carry any suspended particles to the sump before draining it and also to be able to remove the maximum amount?

 

Flushing with a "thinner" fluid, diesel or motor oil, I can see because less will remain coating the interior parts and more will go into the sump as well as its acting a solvent that cuts residue of the heavier oil. 

 

Thanks.

[ebinmaine 67,703]

31 minutes ago, Handy Don said:

Isn't the multi-grade composition of the oil supposed to keep its "runny-ness" consistent across its designated temperature range? Why does warming matter as long as the oil's temp is within its correct range?

Not to jump in front of Pete....

 

I can't answer the "why". 

My real world past experience shows me that even a multi viscosity oil is thinner at higher temps....

For the record I have a long history until about 3 summers ago of using the least expensive oils available.  

[peter lena 8,647]

HANDY DON, I  can relate to the multi viscosity oils used in the gear unit, my personal experience is that you are trying to recover NEGLECT OF SERVICE, found that a couple of gear oil changes along with total usage of said unit , has dramatically  improved what was there. agree with the usage of a " cheaper oil  " to help flush out , picture a straight cut gear , like a paddle wheel , throwing oil everywhere , I  put some time and distance on my flushing's. I  do not respond to an issue, and have to win  , that was not my intent . fresh oil is better than a watery milk shake ,  my opinion, is to stay after your lubricants, my millwright experience , has exposed me to lubrication nightmares , and made me always look for a way to keep me from getting a call in at 2 am . ever seen gear oil turn into solid grease ?  3600 rpm running 24/7 will do that . I regularly check my oils , and look for any changes , and respond accordingly, sorry if I upset anyone with how I deal with an issue  , do what ever you want , pete    

[stevasaurus 22,767]

If you have water in the oil, it is possible that you also have some ice in the trans.  Ice is not going to drain out, you have to make sure the water in the trans is above freezing.  I think that was your original problem.  A torpedo, space heater, trouble light will go a long way to know if it was ice or not.  I am not a big fan of flushing a trans and thinking it is good to go...especially if you just got it from someone else.  Dirty oil with a little water may be OK with a flush, but you are not going to flush out any rust.  You could pull the fenders, and the shifter...use a light through one of the holes and look down another hole.  You would be surprised to know how much you can see.  Turn the input shaft and you can check some of the gears.  

[Handy Don 12,250]

2 hours ago, peter lena said:

HANDY DON, I  can relate to the multi viscosity oils used in the gear unit, my personal experience is that you are trying to recover NEGLECT OF SERVICE, found that a couple of gear oil changes along with total usage of said unit , has dramatically  improved what was there. agree with the usage of a " cheaper oil  " to help flush out , picture a straight cut gear , like a paddle wheel , throwing oil everywhere , I  put some time and distance on my flushing's. I  do not respond to an issue, and have to win  , that was not my intent . fresh oil is better than a watery milk shake ,  my opinion, is to stay after your lubricants, my millwright experience , has exposed me to lubrication nightmares , and made me always look for a way to keep me from getting a call in at 2 am . ever seen gear oil turn into solid grease ?  3600 rpm running 24/7 will do that . I regularly check my oils , and look for any changes , and respond accordingly, sorry if I upset anyone with how I deal with an issue  , do what ever you want , pete    

Apologies, Peter, if my comments came to you as negative.  I intended them out of pure curiosity not directly related to the issue of bringing a neglected (or suspected of being neglected) transmission (or engine for that matter) back to life. I remain curious about the effects of temperature on multi-viscosity oils in the "drain the fluids" context and hope you do have insights from your own research. Fully agree that proactive is far better than reactive (my 275,000 mile car gets oil and filter every 6,000 miles since it hit 100k) and the cost is far lower in time and treasure than repairing or replacing.

Was aware that "overused" oils can become sludge, especially if contaminated. Expecting oil and finding grease would surely be disconcerting!

The idea that thrashing the flushing liquid around will put water in suspension (and possibly other heavy particles of rust, etc.) and a quick drain before they can settle out makes sense as well. As do @stevasaurus's points about ice and that since you are using lubricants they will never "scrub" a rusting casting or gearset as one can with a disassembled unit.