Wheel hub position

[ArturHawk 184]

Hi guys!

 

I was out snow blowing today (snow still coming down) and I realized my AG tires don't have the traction I need.

 

I decided to swap rims with my lawn turf tires so I can run chains. When the tire came off, I was faced with this.

 

 

It was a little difficult to get off, so I grabbed my jaw puller and everything came off pretty OK.

 

 

It's time to put the new hub on, but I'm curious how far it's  supposed to go on. The axle has a little movement in and out. The left side has the hub against the transmission case and doesn't have any in/out motion.

 

I figured the hub is supposed to go against the case to help prevent in/out motion, but a quick search seems to suggest the hubs need to be flush with the end of the axle.

 

Is this true?

 

Any help is appreciated so I can get back to snowthrowing. Thanks!

[Ed Kennell 39,888]

Mine are all flush with the axle.

[ebinmaine 69,921]

22 minutes ago, Ed Kennell said:

Mine are all flush with the axle.

Agreed. 

 

I never run them "against" the transmission. That's a point of contact for grinding away material. 

On 3/4 speeds I back them out just enough to clear the hub from the transmission housing. 

 

As a side note .....

The 3 jaw puller can cause breakage of the hubs when removing them.  

It's best to use an old hub as the pulling mechanism. 

 

[ebinmaine 69,921]

47 minutes ago, ArturHawk said:

The axle has a little movement in and out

About an 1/8" is fine. 

 

About due for axle seals as well. 

[Lee1977 6,940]

40 minutes ago, Ed Kennell said:

Mine are all flush with the axle.

Flush with the end of the axle is the correct position.  This centers the set screw over the center of the woodruff key. Further in or out will rock the woodruff key allowing the hub to slide in the opposite direction.

[WHX?? 49,980]

I stuff a nylon washer in back of the hubs for a wearable thrust washer ala 520's but don't know if it really needs it but can't hurt. 

55 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

About an 1/8" is fine. 

 

About due for axle seals as well. 

check the play in that axle as well.... leaky seal might mean bad bearing. 

[ArturHawk 184]

Thanks for the follow up guys. I also checked my Raider 10 and the hubs were flush with the axles as well. 

3 hours ago, ebinmaine said:

Agreed. 

 

I never run them "against" the transmission. That's a point of contact for grinding away material. 

On 3/4 speeds I back them out just enough to clear the hub from the transmission housing. 

 

As a side note .....

The 3 jaw puller can cause breakage of the hubs when removing them.  

It's best to use an old hub as the pulling mechanism. 

 

 

The first hub was already busted, so I figured no harm. I did use it to pull my other (good) hub out to be flush with the axle per your advice. I only had one spare hub, so I didn't want to break my other one..

 

Also, this is an 8spd, I don't know if that makes any difference. 

 

2 hours ago, WHX24 said:

I stuff a nylon washer in back of the hubs for a wearable thrust washer ala 520's but don't know if it really needs it but can't hurt. 

check the play in that axle as well.... leaky seal might mean bad bearing. 

 

When you say check for play, do you mean up/down? It seemed pretty solid, but I don't know what would be considered "good." It seems my in/out play is less than 1/8" which seems to be good. 

 

How hard is it to replace the seals? My garage isn't heated, so I'll do it now if it's not bad, otherwise I'll wait till spring.

 

Back up and throwing snow thanks to you guys!

 

[ebinmaine 69,921]

1 hour ago, ArturHawk said:

replace the seals? **** do it now

Really not bad at all. The toughest part is removing the hub which is already done. 

 

If you install lug nuts and bolts it makes it MUCH easier to put the wheels on. 

 

Great time to do a transmission fluid change too. 

 

 

[RandyLittrell 3,888]

The hub should be flush with the axle I believe and it should put the grub screw right in the center of the woodruff key. 

 

 

 

 

Randy

[WHX?? 49,980]

Anything over a 1/16" bearing should be considered for replacement. Tranny needs to be split to do that.

I would put a just new seal in it and monitor. Keep an eye on the fluid level.  Tranny does not need to split to do seals.  Doesn't look real bad so maybe could wait till fair weather. 

Keep an eye on the tightness of the set crews as well and check the hub keyways for damage and the axle slot. if you get the hubs off with no problems use a new key, #15 woodruff ... any hardware store. Seals are SKF 11050 any Napa. 

[stevasaurus 22,973]

OK...here is the truth.  The hubs should be flush with the end of the axles on any of the horses...auto or not.  1/8" in and out with the axles is normal...it is built that way.  When you push in one axle, it butts up to the end of the other axle.  If you have the rear end on blocks and you pull out on both axles, you will have 1/8" of space between the ends of the axles inside the differential.  The axle is just sliding through the axle gear and the "C" clip is keeping the axle from pulling out, and is keeping the axle in on the other side.  Seals are easy to replace once the hubs are off.  Just remember when digging them out, they are only 1/8" thick.  File any burrs on the end of the axle and around the keyway before replacing with new seal.  A little tape over the keyway and taping the end of the axle is a good idea...so as not to ruin the rubber in the seal.  Seal should be flush with the end of the axle housing...with rubber facing inward.

   Any up or down or side to side movement in the end of the axles means a bad bearing, and should be replaced as soon as possible so to not damage the axle.  You would have to open the transmission to replace bearings.  

[tbear853 58]

C-85, axle ends are flush in hub.  In this reguards, she's OEM, never yet had hubs off the axles even.  Bought her from a older Troop who just wanted more tractor.   I made and added the brackets for a snow plow I modded in the '90s.

 

Edited December 19, 2020 by tbear853

[tbear853 58]

On 12/16/2020 at 11:17 PM, ebinmaine said:

Really not bad at all. The toughest part is removing the hub which is already done. 

 

If you install lug nuts and bolts it makes it MUCH easier to put the wheels on. 

 

Great time to do a transmission fluid change too. 

 

I did this maybe 30 years ago, I used 7/16-20 all thread rod to cut studs from, threaded them into hubs and locked in place using 7/16-20 nuts on back side.  Use older GM wheel nuts that have the taper, etc and are 7/16-20 thread hold wheels on.  The spacers are steel disc with 5 1/2" nuts welded in the correct pattern which is 5 holes in a 4.5" circle.  I used a extra  hub to line up my nuts to weld  them in place at my work table, then drilled my plates through, the nuts spaced the plate out enough to span the center bore.   They let the tires clear well.  My hubs are flush with the hub face, the spacers are solid in the centers.  

 No more wrestling with a liquid weighted tire and trying to line up a wheel nut. 

 

Edited December 19, 2020 by tbear853

[ebinmaine 69,921]

@tbear853 

 

Nice idea there!

[tbear853 58]

Sitting & browsing before we go look at lights, noticed in some pics the HUB differences.  My old WH had the thinner hub with the thick ribs where the bolts threaded in, it had 5 lug hubs.  This pic of the one I have now  clearly shows the axles is thicker with no ribs, and it looks like the transaxle housing differs too.   As I recall, the axles are 1-1/8" dia, mine are  exposed for about 1".  I knew the hubs differed, but I never took note of housing ends or whether the axles showed on the old one like they do this current C tractor.  I was wondering why some said the hub was next to the housing but others went with axle ends flush.  Maybe it's the extra metal in the earlier hubs maybe due to smaller axles?  Just guessing, thought I'd learn a difference?  I wonder which had 8 pinion differentials now. 

Edited December 20, 2020 by tbear853

[ebinmaine 69,921]

17 minutes ago, tbear853 said:

  Just guessing, thought I'd learn a difference

Here's the way I understand it:

All (?) 3 and 4 speeds have the shorter axle shafts which puts the hub next to the transmission housing. 

All 6 and 8 speeds have a longer axle shaft which leaves the inch or so of space you see between the husband transmission case. 

 

The axle diameter should be 1-1/8" on most 6 or 8 speeds. 1" on most (all??) 3 or 4 speeds. 

 

8 pinion 8 speeds were used from around 1971 up in Raider,  C series and most 400, 500 series. 

Some 300 series had an 8 that used thinner axles and I don't know the diff type. 

 

The thinner "5 star" hubs were used from the early 60s to around 77 or 78, give or take. 

 

[tbear853 58]

3 hours ago, ebinmaine said:

Here's the way I understand it:

All (?) 3 and 4 speeds have the shorter axle shafts which puts the hub next to the transmission housing. 

All 6 and 8 speeds have a longer axle shaft which leaves the inch or so of space you see between the husband transmission case. 

The axle diameter should be 1-1/8" on most 6 or 8 speeds. 1" on most (all??) 3 or 4 speeds. 

It is, I measured them, and one is a hair over 1" exposed, the other right at an inch exposed.

3 hours ago, ebinmaine said:

8 pinion 8 speeds were used from around 1971 up in Raider,  C series and most 400, 500 series. 

Some 300 series had an 8 that used thinner axles and I don't know the diff type. 

 

The thinner "5 star" hubs were used from the early 60s to around 77 or 78, give or take. 

 

OK, Thank you, I wondered about that.  Mine is a C-85, 1981 I think, maybe '82?

[ArturHawk 184]

I've got new lug bolts and will hopefully have lug nuts on Wednesday.

This was my first time taking the tires off. What a pain to line the bolts up again to reinstall the tires.

 

Axles have no up/down or side/side movement, so I won't have to split the transmission. 

 

This past summer I had issues with the pulley on the rototiller rubbing my right tire. Having an extra inch of clearance from moving the hub to the end of the axle should help a ton!