A Tecumseh Tale

[Handy Don 12,246]

36 minutes ago, Gregor said:

It's he!! to get old

My aunt's observation (at 90+) was "Getting old is not for sissies." Keep fighting.

[Gregor 4,846]

So, looking back, this motor was on the 656 when I bought it. It didn't run. My objective was to rebuild it. Did I? Some of the new, and used parts that were replaced include, but aren't limited to, the block, sump cover,carb, crank, piston, valves, lifters, springs, coil, and tune up parts. What I have left of the original motor is, the head, air cleaner, tin work, starter,(that doesn't seem to work), gas tank, muffler, and the little pipe that drains the oil. Did I rebuild a motor, or build a different motor. I'm calling it a re-build. I'm taking it as a win. I hate to fail.

[Gregor 4,846]

You won't believe this, but I have yet another problem, (question) about this motor. It seems to run great, although it floods easily I think. Maybe that's a carb setting. That screw on the bottom of the bowl seems to be very touchy, but back to my problem. The charging circuit is only putting out about 4v DC, and 8v AC. I don't know the exact RPM I am turning, but it is well above idle. I have one of these, but apparently I don't know how to use it. When it's at an idle, it says 4800 RPM, and I certainly don't believe that. Diodes are good, fuse is good. Do the coils on the charging circuit need to be rewound? Could there be another problem? Can the charging / magneto coil be sent somewhere and rebuilt?  Thanks  Greg

[ebinmaine 67,695]

3 hours ago, Gregor said:

You won't believe this, but I have yet another problem, (question) about this motor. It seems to run great, although it floods easily I think. Maybe that's a carb setting. That screw on the bottom of the bowl seems to be very touchy, but back to my problem. The charging circuit is only putting out about 4v DC, and 8v AC. I don't know the exact RPM I am turning, but it is well above idle. I have one of these, but apparently I don't know how to use it. When it's at an idle, it says 4800 RPM, and I certainly don't believe that. Diodes are good, fuse is good. Do the coils on the charging circuit need to be rewound? Could there be another problem? Can the charging / magneto coil be sent somewhere and rebuilt?  Thanks  Greg

@Tractorhead may have good input here. 

 

I do know the voltage should be measured at or near 3600 rpm ...

[Tractorhead 9,064]

6 hours ago, Gregor said:

You won't believe this, but I have yet another problem, (question) about this motor. It seems to run great, although it floods easily I think. Maybe that's a carb setting. That screw on the bottom of the bowl seems to be very touchy, but back to my problem. The charging circuit is only putting out about 4v DC, and 8v AC. I don't know the exact RPM I am turning, but it is well above idle. I have one of these, but apparently I don't know how to use it. When it's at an idle, it says 4800 RPM, and I certainly don't believe that. Diodes are good, fuse is good. Do the coils on the charging circuit need to be rewound? Could there be another problem? Can the charging / magneto coil be sent somewhere and rebuilt?  Thanks  Greg

 

The 4 V indicates for my opinion, that your Charging system have a short in the Coils.

I had also no sendefully readings on my Charging system, so i pulled the Flywheel and found two burnt Coils.

 

 

I do several Tests with Coils and rewind few with different results.

 

i make one coil with 0,5mm cu wire and 136 Turns, this Coil run via an Regulator and supports 13,2V in idle and 14,4 on Full throttle.

another Testing give me the result, that a Coil with 96turns of 1 mm Wire is the perfect solution.

i measured on my Coil a max. current of 8A - a second coil can may be increase the Shortcut Current to about 10- 14A.

 

But i keep the first wounded Coil as it is, this coil is able to deliver max. 4A  cont. what is enough

to recharge the Battery, without Headlights easy.

The headlights i connect to the Highpower Coil.

With a Diode in raw and after a Condenser it flats the Flickering.

 

about the Tacko, your Engine produces 1 ignition per revolution.

you have to divide the displayed Value by 2, than you have the exact RPM‘s.

 

That is, while the Engine gets it ignition from the Flywheel (points) 

One ignition is fired simply in the exhaust stroke,

that doesn’t affect so it is the cheapes Way to make a singlecyl. Ignition on a 4 Stroke Engine.

The ignition can also be compared with a 2 stroke engine..

i hope that clears your Troubles.

 

greets Stefan

 

 

[Gregor 4,846]

about the Tacko, your Engine produces 1 ignition per revolution.

you have to divide the displayed Value by 2, than you have the exact RPM‘s.

 

Now that you say that, I think I remember reading that in the instructions. I'll have to look it over more carefully Thank You

 

I will have to do more research on the charging coil, see what my small engine guy has to say. I know he has a guy that rewinds PTO clutches for him.

 

The only thing I know about this motor, is that it is an H70. Nothing else. So I kind-a had to make some things up. Will it stay on the motor? I don't know, just playing.

[Gregor 4,846]

I isolated the wires from the charging coil by removing them from the rectifier board. Continuity across the 2 wires is 0.8. Continuity from one wire to ground is 0.1  Same for the other wire. Should there be any continuity between the wires and ground?

 

I have read in the book, but I didn't understand much.

Edited January 9, 2021 by Gregor

[Tractorhead 9,064]

9 hours ago, Gregor said:

I isolated the wires from the charging coil by removing them from the rectifier board. Continuity across the 2 wires is 0.8. Continuity from one wire to ground is 0.1  Same for the other wire. Should there be any continuity between the wires and ground?

 

I have read in the book, but I didn't understand much.

 

Your Coils are death, that‘s for sure.

It sounds to me, your Coils look maybe also like mine.

 

They glowed down and are internally shorted and will not longer work.

 

 

 

If you can pry and remove them Carefully, 

 

 

 

You will have a template, the middle post is 1/2“ in square.

 

 

 

 

So you be able to make a new Coil (i described in my Bararian Wheelhorse Thread)

Before you start, you should make a cardboard inlay to protect the new Coil for put it again on and keep it in place.

even if the 1mm copperwire delivers more Current, i suggesting for an easy to build and working Coil a 0,5 mm insulated copperwire

with at least 96 Windings.

You will need a Wirelenght of about 25 meter insulated Copperwire 0,5 mm.

keep the Wirewindings as close together as you can do to reduce the permeability of the Coil but don‘t wind it with too much force,

otherwise it becomes hardly to move the coil over the metalcore.

 

As finish, i used a standart tesa clear, to protect the coil a little more. If you like, you can also do a differen protection methods,

like put it in acryl or epoxy or whatever you like.

At least secure it with few drops of Loctite middle tight.

 

here i was unable to find any usable Coil for this Engine, but i did not search brutforce, 

so i did it the Try by rewinding simply a own Coil what results in a usable Value.

 

A Job that typically should be done on a lazy afternoon.

 

Windings i found out as usable Values was:

0,5mm 67 Wdgs. and a rectified regulator results in usable Power over half throttle

0,5mm 96 Wdgs. Will give you charging capabilities even on Idle.

A maximum shortcut current on 0,5mm Wire of 3-4 A can be measured,

a 1 mm thick Wire will increase the Current to nearly double but will be more tricky to wind.

 

[Gregor 4,846]

I pulled my starter back off and disassembled it. Sanded, and  cleaned the armature, again. Cleaned the brushes again, Sprayed everything with electrical contact cleaner, blew it all out, again. Assembled it and put it back on. VIOLA! It's kind-a sluggish, but it will spin the motor fast enough to start it. Maybe when my new one gets here, it will be even better. Either way, I am NOT going to miss that drill.

 

Still don't have this tachometer figured out. At idle it reads 4800, rev it up and it's at 6700. Even dividing the values by 2, I don't think that's right.

 

Revving up the motor I get about 6.8v AC out of my charger. Guess I'll have to open it up, inspect it, and see what I can see, if anything.

[Handy Don 12,246]

2 hours ago, Tractorhead said:

A Job that typically should be done on a lazy afternoon.

Thank you! The electrics on these engines don't require rocket science but it helps to connect something like re-winding part of a stator to having a good flow of electrons into charging a battery or having working headlights!.

What spec of capacitor are you using to "flat" the flicker out of the LEDs?

You mention that the thicker wire is trickier to wind--is this because of the limited space for the windings?

[Handy Don 12,246]

1 hour ago, Gregor said:

Still don't have this tachometer figured out. At idle it reads 4800, rev it up and it's at 6700. Even dividing the values by 2, I don't think that's right.

Agree that the 4800-6700 range doesn't seem wide enough to account for a ~1000-3600 rpm range.

Is this tach using a sensor wire wrapped around the spark plug wire? The only one of these I've used had settings in the menu to calibrate it with different kinds of engines (1, 2, and 4 cylinder as well as 2- or 4-cycle, and magneto/points vs. electronic ignition). All of these can affect the displayed results.  It also was very specific about how many wraps around the plug wire and where to wrap it to avoid picking up stray impulses from other components. Good luck.

[Gregor 4,846]

Yes it does have the wire wrapped around the spark plug wire. I have tried changing the number of wraps, but doesn't seem to help. I believe I hve it on the right setting for a 4 stroke, single cylinder motor. 1P1R.  I need a tach made for dummies. Something even I can't screw up.

[ebinmaine 67,695]

Go to the internets. Go to the googles. Search

Cheap handheld tachometer. 

 

Something like this will show up. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Bunches of them on fleabay. Just watch the shipping origin. 

 

[Handy Don 12,246]

1 hour ago, Gregor said:

Yes it does have the wire wrapped around the spark plug wire. I have tried changing the number of wraps, but doesn't seem to help. I believe I hve it on the right setting for a 4 stroke, single cylinder motor. 1P1R.  I need a tach made for dummies. Something even I can't screw up.

I think you have a dud tach.

[Tractorhead 9,064]

About the Tacho,

When it is Attached to the sparkline i have wrong settings.

Another issue can be different timing settings caused by the magnets.

best info you get at the Points connector, and connect that line onto the impulsewire.

 

when the Tacho also get‘s its Power from the Tractor charging system coil, it can be happen that the Ripples of the Rectifying will be missinterpreted to count. That is on a 2 Way Rectifiers double the rpm‘s.

if you divide your displayed rpm by 4 it shall be the real Value if that happens.

 

@Handy Don

 

 

This are the Parts i use to flat the Ripples.

it‘s a 8A high Current Lowpower Schottky Diode and a 220uF 400V Condenser.

i used it that high Voltage capacitor, because i still have several here in spare.

They are robbed out of an Older Power supply.

 

The diode goes in line on the „hot“ Wire ( one Way Rectification) and on the End of the Diode i put the capacitor parallel between ground and the Diode. On this End, i grabbed the Voltage for the LED‘s.

 

 

[Handy Don 12,246]

2 minutes ago, Tractorhead said:

This are the Parts i use to flat the Ripples

Danke

[Tractorhead 9,064]

6 minutes ago, Handy Don said:

Danke

Gerne! 

 

[Gregor 4,846]

I really appreciate your knowledge and information Tractorhead, but you seem to be under the misconception that you are talking to someone who knows what they are doing, I know better. I am going to remove the stator from my motor and inspect it for anything I can find. I am also going to order some wire to rewind the coils as you describe. If it doesn't work when I am done, I figure what the he!!, it wasn't working when I started! I lose nothing. I may have to ship this thing to Bavaria!

[ebinmaine 67,695]

48 minutes ago, Gregor said:

I really appreciate your knowledge and information Tractorhead, but you seem to be under the misconception that you are talking to someone who knows what they are doing, I know better. I am going to remove the stator from my motor and inspect it for anything I can find. I am also going to order some wire to rewind the coils as you describe. If it doesn't work when I am done, I figure what the he!!, it wasn't working when I started! I lose nothing. I may have to ship this thing to Bavaria!

Greg I believe you'll find that ole @Tractorhead Steve will be able to get you fixed up. 

[Tractorhead 9,064]

26 minutes ago, Gregor said:

I really appreciate your knowledge and information Tractorhead, but you seem to be under the misconception that you are talking to someone who knows what they are doing, I know better. I am going to remove the stator from my motor and inspect it for anything I can find. I am also going to order some wire to rewind the coils as you describe. If it doesn't work when I am done, I figure what the he!!, it wasn't working when I started! I lose nothing. I may have to ship this thing to Bavaria!

 

 

Or you wait for the next Big Show, i plan to be there when Corona rules allows it.

 

reading my Thread „the bavarian Wheelhorse grows“ 

in this thread you will find some Picts of how i did it.

important is you need thin insulated copper wire by film or coilwire, plain copperwire will not work.

It‘s definitely more simple as you think.

 

don‘t wind it too tough to not overstretch the Wire, but tough enough to lay clean one winding next to the others.

Winthis Windingscheme you save a lot of spac3 and the permeability becomes best..

if you like, you can add few Windings more, to have a little spare Voltage on lower RPM‘s.

 

Do it layer for layer and while winding it count each complete winding.

When you Wire is new, it can be formed simply into the shape you need.

the Cardboard underlay is the most important thing to prepare to keep the Copper away from the Metal where it will be mount later.

 

0,5 up to 1 mm is good value as Cardboard, after windings are done fix all the Windings with Tesa film or similar.

you can also use highspeed epoxy to secure the Coil when it‘s finished, that‘s up to you.

You just have to take care the metal don‘t scratches you new rewound Coil, that‘s all.

 

when you do it so, it will be definitely working as long as nothing scratches the Copperwire.

 

[Gregor 4,846]

I removed the flywheel, sprayed about a 1/2 can of electrical contact cleaner on the coils, blew them off carefully with my air hose, cleaned up any wire contact points, replaced the ends on the stator wires, and reassembled everything. No change. The most ACv I can get is about 6.8. So I will attempt to rewind the coils. My new starter came in, so I installed that also. after a bit of modifying. It turns the motor over like a brand new starter, go figure! I think maybe if I had this thing mounted on the 656, I could get a good pull on the recoil starter, and start it that way. Being up almost 40" on my work bench, makes it a little tough. I went over to my small engine guy to ask him about the charging unit. No, he does not rewind them, no, he doesn't know anyone that does. "Just buy a new one" he says. Gee, why didn't I think of that? I would if I could find one. While I was there, I did something stupid. Sometimes I'm so stupid, I amaze even myself. Seems he had a Tecumseh motor laying around somewhere, so guess what I came home with.

Don't know anything about it. He says it's a good motor, but the tractor it was on went to he!!. Guess I will find out. Any Wheel Horse tractors have a vertical shaft motor on them?

[ebinmaine 67,695]

25 minutes ago, Gregor said:

vertical shaft

There were a few over the years. All lawn tractors, not garden tractors but good enough in their own right. 

[Tractorhead 9,064]

The „200 series“ means  211 and 212 have vertical engines,

but they be more sheet metal Lanmowers with much weaker geraboxes and not Garden tractors

 

Have the Engine Charging coils in?

maybe they can be exchanged..

[Gregor 4,846]

Yes it has coils, but looking at the pics in parts diagrams, they are completely different.

[Gregor 4,846]

Tratorhead. Can you tell me where these 2 little wires go?If they are the ends on the coil winding wires, then they are going to case ground, which doesn't make sense to me