Project "Snow Drift"

[DennisThornton 4,769]

14 minutes ago, Oldskool said:

It concerns me as well. I will take all the input I can get. I dont really want to drag it back into the garage broken on the test drive. My thinking on it originally was I looked at it like a drive shaft in a vehicle. The bearing pack being the transmission end, the screw being the driveshaft itself then the front bearing being the differential. I realize a vehicle doesnt rest on the driveshaft but considering the torque of a 4x4 in off road conditions or a drag car launching off the line this is light weight. Also a driveshaft being supported on both ends doesnt just sway around. 

I can see your original point and reasoning but as you just mentioned...

I think of UJ as a HD flex joint and I fear this build is asking for more than a bit of flex.  Maybe it will work but wear prematurely.  Or mounted on a stationary brace between the screw and UJ for support if needed:

[Oldskool 6,644]

33 minutes ago, DennisThornton said:

  Or mounted on a stationary brace between the screw and UJ for support if needed:

Wouldnt a fixed point even with a self aligning bearing act as a fulcrum? If that's the case wouldnt that in turn add as much destructive force as not having it? It's a conundrum for sure.  There surely has to be a better way. With enough spitballing there should be a viable upgrade for when this finally gives it up.

[SylvanLakeWH 25,562]

Just asking: Do you “need” articulation? In other words, could you do this solid? If it’s use is limited to snow, perhaps the snow gives you enough cushion...?

 

Another thought - motorcycle rear ends articulate up and down with chain and suspension. Perhaps a “sideways” swing arm at the rear end of each screw?

[DennisThornton 4,769]

7 minutes ago, Oldskool said:

Wouldnt a fixed point even with a self aligning bearing act as a fulcrum? If that's the case wouldnt that in turn add as much destructive force as not having it? It's a conundrum for sure.  There surely has to be a better way. With enough spitballing there should be a viable upgrade for when this finally gives it up.

Don't know...  My thoughts were that the ball would allow for that end of the screw to point towards the articulating front, the UJ allow for the rear of the screw to angle a bit and not be subjected to as much force, but again, I don't know.  Don't even know for sure that the UJ will fail, but it bothers me some as is.

[Oldskool 6,644]

Just now, SylvanLakeWH said:

Just asking: Do you “need” articulation? In other words, could you do this solid? If it’s use is limited to snow, perhaps the snow gives you enough cushion...?

 

Another thought - motorcycle rear ends articulate up and down with chain and suspension. Perhaps a “sideways” swing arm at the rear end of each screw?

I dont think I need it. The original tractor did. So trying to keep that in the build.  I believe a swing arm would alter my track width constantly. A thought to pin to the wall though for consideration

[Oldskool 6,644]

1 minute ago, DennisThornton said:

I don't know.  Don't even know for sure that the UJ will fail, but it bothers me some as is.

My thoughts exactly 

[Handy Don 12,232]

I get that with frame/axle flex there can't be perfect alignment on the axis of the screw drum and, from that, the distance between front and rear bracing will change somewhat. The bearing that @DennisThornton showed at both ends would cover the angular motion but something would be needed to handle the longitudinal forces as well, like thrust bearings or deep-race ball bearings in both directions. Nifty problem!

[DennisThornton 4,769]

The more I think about it, UJs aren't meant for that kind of side stress.  Rotational yes.  I think you are going to need some additional support.

[Oldskool 6,644]

 

[Handy Don 12,232]

1 minute ago, DennisThornton said:

The more I think about it, UJs aren't meant for that kind of side stress.  Rotational yes.  I think you are going to need some additional support.

I agree about the design intent for stress being rotational only, but those particular heavy U's may surprise by being an unconventional use that works ok for this load, power, and duty cycle.

[19richie66 17,508]

2 hours ago, Oldskool said:

Any further thoughts on that? Also keeping it so it will articulate?

A bearing plate just like you have for the front on the rear. The entire machine should be supported by bearings on each end of the augers. The driveshfts should “float” with no weight on them. In a vehicle, the transmission/rear axle  are supported by a mounts. 

[Oldskool 6,644]

1 minute ago, Handy Don said:

I get that with frame/axle flex there can't be perfect alignment on the axis of the screw drum and, from that, the distance between front and rear bracing will change somewhat. The bearing that @DennisThornton showed at both ends would cover the angular motion but something would be needed to handle the longitudinal forces as well, like thrust bearings or deep-race ball bearings in both directions. Nifty problem!

My front bearing is self aligning for the articulation, and the shaft from the screw fits tight to it. Possibly alot of force on the front axle. Also the shaft has been drilled and cross drilled with a grease fitting installed. It was installed to allow the shaft to slide a bit to compensate for the length change in the arc during articulation. 

[DennisThornton 4,769]

4 minutes ago, Handy Don said:

I agree about the design intent for stress being rotational only, but those particular heavy U's may surprise by being an unconventional use that works ok for this load, power, and duty cycle.

I hope you are right, but I see them the first things to go.  Just not made for that.  How can it be beefed up now without a major change?  I haven't give up on a ball bushing or pillow block.  And as Handy Don mentioned some thrust bearings at both ends.

Edited January 18, 2021 by DennisThornton

[Oldskool 6,644]

1 minute ago, 19richie66 said:

A bearing plate just like you have for the front on the rear. The entire machine should be supported by bearings on each end of the augers. The driveshfts should “float” with no weight on them. In a vehicle, the transmission/rear axle  are supported by a mounts. 

In doing so I believe I would have to install a spline shaft in conjunction with that?

Edited January 18, 2021 by Oldskool

[Handy Don 12,232]

2 minutes ago, Oldskool said:

My front bearing is self aligning for the articulation, and the shaft from the screw fits tight to it. Possibly alot of force on the front axle. Also the shaft has been drilled and cross drilled with a grease fitting installed. It was installed to allow the shaft to slide a bit to compensate for the length change in the arc during articulation. 

Cool. So the longitudinal force is carried by the rear struts. The screw pulls on the U for forward motion and pushes on it for reverse.

[DennisThornton 4,769]

2 minutes ago, Oldskool said:

In doing so I believe I would have to install a spline shaft in conjunction with that?

Yeah, like a drive shaft with UJs...

Got a couple of bugs here I think.  I did suggest you leave the bugs out.

[Oldskool 6,644]

Just now, Handy Don said:

Cool. So the longitudinal force is carried by the rear struts. The screw pulls on the U for forward motion and pushes on it for reverse.

Yes they do pull a bit but the screw pushes on the front axle just as much

[Oldskool 6,644]

Just now, DennisThornton said:

Yeah, like a drive shaft with UJs...

Got a couple of bugs here I think.  I did suggest you leave the bugs out.

LOL that's like making baked beans and leavening the farts out lol. I did try for no bugs. They are only bugs if it doesnt work. Right?

[305 380]

looking at videos and pictures online i see that Ford did not use universal joints. the rear bearing must have had some sort of method to allow for the misalignment

[Oldskool 6,644]

Just now, 305 said:

looking at videos and pictures online i see that Ford did not use universal joints. the rear bearing must have had some sort of method to allow for the misalignment

No I dont believe they did. They used something for sure just not sure what. Otherwise it would derail the chain every time it articulated.

[SylvanLakeWH 25,562]

4 minutes ago, Oldskool said:

Otherwise it would derail the chain every time it articulated.

 

40 minutes ago, Oldskool said:

I dont think I need it. The original tractor did. So trying to keep that in the build.  I believe a swing arm would alter my track width constantly. A thought to pin to the wall though for consideration

 

So, you noted above that you don’t “need” articulation... maybe just go “solid” front and back with braces and go with bearings / pillow blocks to let the screws float...

 

[Oldskool 6,644]

I just went and looked at some pictures, Now Im think the original tractor didnt have a flex joint at all. They may have left the chain slack enough to twist with the sprocket. Notice the bosses for a puller. It must have been mounted on a multi keyed shaft or a spline

[Oldskool 6,644]

Just now, SylvanLakeWH said:

 

 

So, you noted above that you don’t “need” articulation... maybe just go “solid” front and back with braces and go with bearings / pillow blocks to let the screws float...

 

After looking at the pics I may change things up. I at least have to try what I have.

1: To see if it fails 

2: I need to know where i stand with gear ratio.

3: To see if there are any other problems

[Oldskool 6,644]

I'm not as spry as I used to be BUT I justed picked the front and back of this thing up. I definitely doesnt weigh as much as I was thinking. 4 good men could carry it away. This is going to help alot on those u- joints. I think I'm just going to move forward. If I do have an issue the rear section unbolts. I can take it off to make changes. Sprocket change is also easy along with altering the chain guards.

[Oldskool 6,644]

Here is a shot of the articulation. 8" in one direction. That's what I dont want to give up.