PTO engage lever pops out

[cvjp 2]

Hi Guys,

When I engage PTO lever, it pops out after a minute or so.

I have seen some discussion on here about it.

I'm not getting full power to the deck even though the belt at the back of the PTO is running fast. 

When I push the PTO plate against the PTO I get the proper power to the deck.

So i think i have two problems.

The lever rod trunnion has bees spot welded so I cant adjust.

The lever rod is bent upwards so I am guessing somebody has had an adjustment made.

The tractor is second hand but I have had for 4 yrs no problems with PTO or power up till now. I have had multiple deck to PTO belt changes 1-2 per year

but not this problem.

Is there a chance the replacement PTO to deck belt is too heavy?

Any ideas would be great,

Thanks in advance!

[ebinmaine 68,191]

 

 

I don't have any tractors with a PTO so I can't help you with your issue but just wanted to say hi.

 

Also, what year and model of tractor are we working on?

[cvjp 2]

Hi ebinmaine,

Thanks for reply.

Model 520H don't know year guessing 90's.

561.9 hrs on clock.

BR

 

 

[Tuneup 1,433]

Top of the line machine and a lovely place to live. I'd wonder why that spot weld exists and then would get the adjustability back, and before the clutch surface burns or wears out. I'm always fiddling with this and that and the removal of an adjustment point, especially for a belt where adjustability is really needed, would drive me nuts.

[Pollack Pete 2,273]

Sounds like you need at least a new threaded adjustment rod and trunion.Nothing should be welded on it.It's adjustable so as to put more pressure on the clutch hub.Possibly also a new PTO clutch disc.You install 1 to 2 new belts per year?? Something definetly wrong.I've had Wheel Horses with 40 yr old belts and still going strong. I usually only change them when they finally break.

[Retired Wrencher 5,504]

CV  

 

[cvjp 2]

Hi Guys,

Thanks for replies, I will order those parts to see if it fixes problem.

I cut a small field and the grass grows quite long. I have to adjust the deck height accordingly but it struggles as the grass is at different heights in different areas. I had blades replaced and sharpened and its serviced once a year, but still belts burn, I think idle pulleys need to be replaced as well.

Thanks

[SylvanLakeWH 25,876]

[Ed Kennell 38,596]

 to the 

 

It sounds like you have several problems.      The belts should not be slipping and burning.     The correct size and shape Wheel Horse belt should be used.   All pulleys mist be clean and free of oil.

The PTO lever rod and trunnion must be adjustable.    The  PTO engagement lever  is actually designed to cam over the rod and hold the PTO in the engaged position.   Of course none of this will work if the clutch lining is worn and the tension is not adjustable.

 

BTW, beautiful country there in Northern Wales.    I have spent time rebuilding the Ffestiniog Hydro Plant about one hour South of Anglesey.

[oliver2-44 9,844]

Is you have a small grinder like a Dremel, see if you can remove the tack weld with a cut off wheel and pointed grinding stone.  You might damage part of a thread or two. One apart run a die threading nut over the threads to clean them up.  if you don't have a die , you can take a standard nut and run it up and down several times.  Hope this helps get the adjustment back.

[cvjp 2]

Hi Ed,

Thanks for advice. All pulleys are clean and free of dust. I have used mostly Toro parts for belts except for last two, they all fail, burn under load. I keep them loose so as to allow them to slip if load is too heavy.

Nipples on deck are all greased. Movement of deck is ok.

I loaned tractor to neighbour while i was abroad need to talk to him about when this popping started as it wasn't happening when i gave it to him.

Maybe he adjusted something else.

When engaged CAM plate above PTO is slightly right of centre is this right?

Thanks

[cvjp 2]

Yep ED,

Beautiful country

48 minutes ago, oliver2-44 said:

Is you have a small grinder like a Dremel, see if you can remove the tack weld with a cut off wheel and pointed grinding stone.  You might damage part of a thread or two. One apart run a die threading nut over the threads to clean them up.  if you don't have a die , you can take a standard nut and run it up and down several times.  Hope this helps get the adjustment back.

Hi Oliver,

Because of the bend in the rod I think I will go back to square one and replace.

Me and grinders historically do a lot of damage, I have the same problem with chainsaws!

Thanks for advice!

[lynnmor 7,352]

 

The belt will slip and burn if the PTO is slipping.  What happens is that the necessary torque increases as the RPM drops.  Pull the PTO, inspect the clutch lining and the surface it rides on.  Inspect the bearings and grease the roller bearing,  Replace the knackered parts.  I have seen a number of PTO's where the "throwout" bearing was spent or the pin thru the hoop was broken and the operator continued to abuse it.  It is very easy to disassemble the PTO, just remove the brake using two 7/16" wrenches.

[Ed Kennell 38,596]

1 hour ago, cvjp said:

Hi Ed,

Thanks for advice. All pulleys are clean and free of dust. I have used mostly Toro parts for belts except for last two, they all fail, burn under load. I keep them loose so as to allow them to slip if load is too heavy.

Nipples on deck are all greased. Movement of deck is ok.

I loaned tractor to neighbour while i was abroad need to talk to him about when this popping started as it wasn't happening when i gave it to him.

Maybe he adjusted something else.

When engaged CAM plate above PTO is slightly right of centre is this right?

Thanks

The deck drive belt should be kept tight via the mule drive tension adjuster.      The deck trunnion belt that is spring loaded will allow an individual blade to slip if it is overloaded.

 

Here are a couple pictures of the PTO   upper plate. Yes, it is to the right of center when engaged.

 

PTO disengaged

 

PTO engaged

 

Here is the PTO engagement lever where the camming takes place to keep the PTO engaged.

Disengaged PTO

 

engaged PTO     notice how far the threaded rod raises when engaged.   This is the camming that keeps it engaged, not the plate at the PTO .

[daveoman1966 3,758]

The PTO rod should be on TOP of the Triangle plate...not below it.  True for 300 400 500 and all others.  

[pfrederi 17,852]

I do not know about that.  The trunion will not clear the muffler on my C-175 or 418a if you try it from the top.  they all seem to work Ok from the bottom

[lynnmor 7,352]

54 minutes ago, daveoman1966 said:

The PTO rod should be on TOP of the Triangle plate...not below it.  True for 300 400 500 and all others.  

 

The rod should be below the plate on most.  The 520H owners manual shows it that way on all years but one, and that manual is incorrect.

[tom2p 2,394]

the rod is below the plate on my 312 and 416's

 

 

[cvjp 2]

Hi Gents,

Thanks for all the pics and information,.

My rod is below plate see pics below.

This is with PTO disengaged.

[cvjp 2]

Hi Gents,

This is with PTO engaged, see below.

[Pullstart 63,078]

@cvjp I have little to no valuable advice on this matter, but 

[peter lena 8,715]

cvjp,  interesting read to your issue , solved pto lever and related pulley/bearing failures with simple  easy  detailing , notice the start of the pto lever action ? along side battery ? i added about  3/8 of an inch of washers to eliminate the wobble. then went to heim swivel joints at the clutch area , constant smooth solid swivel action , simply , die nut  a 3/8x24 , over the existing 3/8x16 thread , use oil for cutting lube . those regularly failing pulley bearings , are a simple upgrade to hi temp grease , like 550 temp lucas red and tacky . let me know if you are interested in other information , i know what i have done upsets the purests , but i have no issues or failures in these trouble spots, pete 

 

[Ed Kennell 38,596]

20 hours ago, daveoman1966 said:

The PTO rod should be on TOP of the Triangle plate...not below it.  True for 300 400 500 and all others.  

 

 

I checked the rod position on my 417H and C-120 H.  As you can see, they both have the rod on top as Dave states.

417

C-120

 

The 312H was on the bottom,  and did not have enough clearance with the muffler to move it to the top.

 

I did not like the way the trunnion was cocked in the plate, so I was able to move the trunnion to the top by removing the plate, inserting the trunnion, then re installing the plate with the trunnion in place.

 

Although this makes it more difficult to make PTO tension adjustments, the alignment is much better and by raising this end of the rod, the camming geometry that keeps the PTO engaged is improved.

 

Thanks Dave, I agree,  although the 312 PTO always stayed engaged, the trunnion should be on top of the plate.

 

My 520H snow machine Is not available to check as it still in remote summer storage.    I will check it later.

 

Here is the 520H also on top with plenty of clearance to the muffler.

 

 

 

Edited October 15, 2020 by Ed Kennell

[Lee1977 6,773]

I disagree with the rod being on top of 300 and 500 machines, Don't have a 400 but I think it would be the same. 

My old C-120 it's on the top as it should be on the older models.

I also use a washer on the trunion to take up the slack.  I usually loose some washers when making an adjustment in the yard.

There  is only two reasons for the PTO to pop out, too loose or too tight to go all the way down and lock in.

[WheelHorse_of_course 99]

On 10/14/2020 at 10:50 AM, cvjp said:

Hi Ed,

Thanks for advice. All pulleys are clean and free of dust. I have used mostly Toro parts for belts except for last two, they all fail, burn under load. I keep them loose so as to allow them to slip if load is too heavy.

Nipples on deck are all greased. Movement of deck is ok.

I loaned tractor to neighbour while i was abroad need to talk to him about when this popping started as it wasn't happening when i gave it to him.

Maybe he adjusted something else.

When engaged CAM plate above PTO is slightly right of centre is this right?

Thanks

Nice job getting things better aligned, and presumably you got the parts to adjust PTO clutch.

 

As far as belts, I would suspect there's something not right. One possibility is not enough belt tension.

 

But I have definitely seen cases where idlers seems OK at first look, but proved to be problematic when actually under load. Same for spindles. Idlers are cheap enough, so if you detect any wobbliness, gritiness when turning by hand (no belt applied) especially when twisting as you turn them, then they may be causing friction under load, even though they will free spin ok. I had a flat roller (one of the older replaceable bearing types) that caused me many belt failures despite seemingly pretty good. I could not find the right bearing for cheap so I had to bush them. Once I did replace them it made a huge difference.

 

One clue in that case (in retrospect) has the the belt had quite a bit of tension variation (e.g. fluttering along the long axis). Replacement generic idlers are fairly cheap, so if there's any doubt consider replacing. Also always confirm diameter as sometimes incorrect replacement shave been installed.

 

I love the ones with the replaceable bearings and vowed to upgrade all of mine to that style. I had planned on selling the bearings and bushings as a kit, but never got around to it.