How High Is Too High?

[WHX?? 48,823]

Agreed Richard but if the condensor is shorted out, or partially shorted,  is it not the same as pushing that little button on some points cover?

[ZXT 2,401]

1 hour ago, WHX24 said:

If the condensor is shorted out, or partially shorted,  is it not the same as pushing that little button on some points cover?

Pretty much.

[tunahead72 2,423]

An update since the last time I checked in about this tractor…

 

I'm still trying to get the engine to start and run, with not much success.  Here's what I've tried in the last couple of weeks, roughly in order:

 

Tried another new plug, no change.

 

Disconnected the condenser, no change.

 

Installed a new clean set of points, and made and installed a new points wire, no change.

 

Cleaned and tightened connections and the mounting plate at the solenoid, and the connection at the starter, and installed my freshly charged battery.

 

At this point, the engine responded a little better than before, and even started and "ran" very briefly, but it was very rough and uneven, stumbled and coughed, and wouldn't keep running.  I also noticed a wet area on top of the head at the base of the plug, never seen that before.

 

Later, I added a ground wire from the battery negative terminal to the engine lifting tab, no change.

 

I also switched the coil with the one on my 310-8, no change, and the coil from the C-105 works fine on the other tractor.

 

I bought a spark plug tester (a handy little tool), and I seem to get what I think is a weak spark, and sometimes none at all, while I'm cranking.  I took the points cover off so I could see them in action, and that spark looks weak to me too, although I'm no expert here.

 

The fuel pump seems to be working well, plenty of strong spurts while cranking.  I checked the carb again, float seems to be operating smoothly, nothing unusual that I could see.  I forgot to mention earlier, I added bushings to the throttle shaft area, that's operating much smoother and with less play than before.

 

The wet area on the head puzzled me, so I took it off and brought it back to my local machine shop.  They had just installed a heli-coil for the plug a few days earlier, and I asked them to take another look.  They didn't see anything wrong with the head or the new heli-coil, and suggested that I might have worn rings, high crankcase pressure and low compression.  Worn rings wouldn't surprise me at all, this engine has a lot of hours and burns a lot of oil.  I haven't tested compression yet, or done a leakdown test.  I take that back, I did a poor man's compression test by placing my thumb on top of the spark plug hole while my daughter cranked the engine, it pushed my thumb out of the hole fairly strongly.  Strong enough?  I don't know.

 

Based on the little bit of improvement I saw after cleaning and tightening some of the connections, I think my next step is to continue with connections at the ignition switch, ammeter, voltage regulator, starter mounting bolts, anywhere else I can think of.  The ignition switch itself is well worn, I'll check it thoroughly while I have it out.

 

I have the battery out for charging, I'll do a load test on it before I put it back on the tractor.

 

There's one other thing that might be worth mentioning…  The muffler on this thing rattles a good bit, it's been going on for quite a while, and I even have one of @jay bee's excellent quality mufflers sitting in a box waiting to be installed.  Is it possible a worn-out muffler would cause the issues I'm having getting this engine started?

 

I'm running out of ideas, any thoughts are welcome.

 

[ebinmaine 67,553]

You're definitely headed the right direction with the removal and cleaning of the connections mentioned above.

After that is done you should take your digital meter and carefully check connections as you're turning the key off and on .

One of the issues we see occasionally is that the ammeter itself goes bad. you can check that simply by moving one of the wires to the other stud, bypassing the ammeter.

Once you get the spark plug tester in your hands and take a look at that you can verify decent spark under compression.

If you have decent spark and you feel like it's a fuel related issue maybe you could get a spray bottle and squirt some gas in to the face of the carburetor with no air filter on. Try to start it. See what happens.

 

For the hood wiring you asked about in a previous post. You know how there are flat four connectors for your trailer? There are also flat two post connectors. You could wire one of those in so that you can take the hood off just by unplugging that .

 

Not sure about the muffler causing the issue. I suppose anything's possible with these engines will run without a muffler. .. having one that is clogged. That's very different.

[tunahead72 2,423]

Thanks Eric...

 

I'm going out of town tomorrow, so I may not be able to work on this much for a few days.  But I think charging and testing the battery, and cleaning connections is my best direction right now.  I've been hesitating to check ALL connections, just because I couldn't see how "other" connections could affect my starting problem, since I'm consistently getting power to the coil.  Plus I'm lazy.

 

But then yesterday I just stared at the tractor and went through the whole starting process in my mind, and realized that the ignition switch has a lot of play inside when I turn the key, and I finally realized that pretty much ANYTHING in the circuit could be loose or damaged.  Thanks for the tip on the ammeter, I know that can be an issue but I hadn't thought to bypass it.

 

I've been using the spark tester, and my meter, for several days now, trying this, trying that.  Nothing has jumped at me yet, but I keep reminding myself that all my testing is done in a static condition, and anything can change with a little vibration or a bad spot on any one of the components.  My gut tells me it's an electrical issue, but it's been wrong before.  I have tried spraying carb cleaner into the carb throat to get it to start, didn't work.

 

By the way, thanks for your recommendation on the Stens blue fuel line.  I replaced all the lines in the fuel system with it, and so far I love it!  It's so easy to see exactly where fuel is and isn't.  And I didn't use clamps, so it's easy to pull it off to test flow.  Thanks!

 

[lynnmor 7,307]

Did you reinstall the condenser?   One purpose of the condenser is to minimize the arcing, the other purpose is to provide a sharp cutoff of the current to the coil in order to provide a quick collapse of the magnetic field so there is a high voltage to the plug.  That leaking Heli-Coil was not done right, you may need a new head if the shop knackered it.  If the muffler is blocking flow, remove it for now.

[tunahead72 2,423]

Thanks!

 

I didn't know that about the condenser, I'll hook it back up.

 

And you think the heli-coil is leaking?  That was my first thought, which is why I brought it back to the shop.  I'll keep that in mind and address it after I get this thing running.

 

Removing the muffler might be a whole project by itself, I've been hitting the joints with PBlaster, I'll keep doing that and take it off soon.

 

[squonk 41,137]

If your helicoil is leaking causing oil on top of the head, you got more problems than a weak spark. Did the oil show up there without the engine even running? If so I bet the plug can't fire with all that oil blowing around.

 

I had an issue with my 1267 shortly after painting the whole tractor. It would run for 10 minutes then quit. Upon pulling the plug it was so fouled with gunk I had to dig it out with a pick. After cleaning it would happen again in 10 minutes. The oil level never changed nor did it smoke, but it just was pumping crap onto the plug. Upon pulling the head lots of gunk and crud everywhere. I just swapped in another engine

[tunahead72 2,423]

Thanks for the positive vibe, Mike! 

 

The oil (or maybe even gas?) started when the engine was "trying" to run, coughing, stumbling, farting.  I wouldn't really call it running, but I see your point.  I've pulled the plug out several times after I noticed the wetness, and it didn't look fouled, just a little dirty/wet, but I'll certainly check it again and keep an eye on it.

 

[lynnmor 7,307]

There should be nothing coming out around the spark plug.  Make a mixture of dish soap and water and paint it around the spark plug, then run the starter.  Any bubbles will indicate a leak and a poor Heli-Coil job.

[Tractorhead 9,064]

The idea with water and dish soap to check on cold engine if it leaks is also my preferred Version.

it show‘s lightest fails visible up, even on slow cranking if it was outside the Combustion chamber.

 

I would suggesting to buy a cheap compression tester with a gauge.

i purchase mine in a motocycle store when they have a Sale for just 5 Bucks.

it comes with an adapter to fit in each motocycle sparkplug hole.

 

it‘s a simple to use tool and very handy to check old engines about compression.

Even a cheap compression tester is for that kind of Engines good enough, mine shows in PSI and KP/squarecentimeters

to find out if the Engine is definitive able to run and shall load your Budget with not more than about 10$.

it shows you quick if a rework of the engine is needed or if it shall run.

 

 

 

A oil smoking Engine produces a lot of gunk as also allready mentioned before,

that oil neboulous internally in combustion chamber can also be contaminated with some worn material ,

that was also possible to reduces the ignition quality on a sparkplug by shortening while combusting,

it depends on how old the oil is. If the Oil is older, maybe an oilchange can reduce that contamination and this effect.

 

Also a carbon in the combutionchamber over times (what i be sure it have internally) can broke free and clogging or

even ruin the intake or exhaust Valve seat with minimal bypass pit‘s

than the valve is unable to tighten right up, result of that can also be a too weak compression.

Here a Fingertest say‘s nothing more than a bad estimation.

 

 

I do on each of My machines after i purchased them a check about ground potential,

after that mostly a rework on the Ground site.

search for a good place ( i. Eg the Frame) and mount an unisolated Bolt on and path each ground

with a seperate Wire to that ground potential point.

So you can be sure, all systems have definitively the same potential.

 

Another issues can be loosen screws on the carbmount or a defect Seal,

where Air can bypass a way into engine as it didn‘t should.

 

Remove the head and put on closed Valves an extreme thin oil onto ( diesel i. Eg.) 

This will show you if the Valveseats are tighten good enough.

if you remove the head for check the Helicoil insert, you will be able to test that out.

turn the engine in cumbustion stroke and put a few dribbs of diesel aside the valves

until ther‘s a little drop in height all arround the valve.

 

if it begin to pass between valve and valveseat it has to be redone,

if the valve was tight, this dieselhill arround the Valve will stay for 2 minute at least.

also a simply and cheap leak test

 

Btw.

if the head wasn‘t removed while inserting the helicoil a contamination

of the combustionchamber can be also resulting in loose combustion pressure.

 

[tunahead72 2,423]

Thanks for all your help with this, guys.  I wasn't able to work on the tractor today, but I'll get back to it middle of next week and keep you posted.

 

Thanks again!

 

[ranger 1,750]

Sorry if someone has already suggested this, if you remove the ‘live’ wire from the coil and fit a temporary cable in it’s place, then hold the other end onto the positive terminal of the battery as you crank the starter. If you now have a decent spark this points to the tractor wiring being at fault. If still no spark, then engine mounted wiring/ignition components are suspect. You could also connect a jump/booster lead from battery negative to ground on engine to quickly test this side of the system.

Doug 

[JohnD 145]

FWIW - the Kohler KT17 manual says the high side should be 9500 to 11500 ohms on that coil you've already swapped out.  Otherwise it is considered faulty. 

[tunahead72 2,423]

I know this thread is more than two years old, but I thought I would give you all another update on this tractor and its no-start condition...

 

A few days ago, I decided to take advantage of yet another day of 60° temperatures here this "winter" and try again to get it started.  In the back of my mind, I remembered reading something here on RedSquare a while ago that got me thinking, which is that none of these tractors, or any gasoline-powered engine for that matter, will run very well without a substantial amount of fuel in the tank.  It occurred to me that I had done most of my testing and attempts at starting with only a little bit of gas in the tank, and I made a mental note to add a gallon or so and try again.

 

So I checked the fluids and air filter, cleaned the points, spark plug and miscellaneous connectors, installed a fresh battery, and added about a gallon of not-especially-fresh fuel to the tank.  I then tried to start it.  It wouldn't start at first, but showed some promise.  I got my daughter to run through the starting procedure while I checked for spark at the points.  It was a bright sunny day, so I couldn't see any spark, but after several tries the engine started and ran!  It was rough at first, but then a little smoother, and ran for about 10 minutes or so before we shut it off and high-fived each other.

 

I bought more gas and filled the tank, and it started again (easily) and ran for 10-15 minutes before I shut it off.  I've fiddled with the carb a bit since then, and it's running better now, and I drove it around the yard in all gears and both ranges to test the transmission.  It seems good at the moment, and I think it's at the point where it just needs some tweaking and its usual spring service so I can get it back to our place in Virginia again and let it work for us there.

 

So, I'm not 100% certain, but I think my "electrical" problem was actually a "fuel" problem all along.  I'm still not seeing a consistent spark at the points, but the engine is running pretty smoothly at this point, and I'll keep my eyes open for clues as I go along.

 

And the moral of the story:  Pay attention to the fundamentals! 

 

[squonk 41,137]

The less "spark at the points" the better. The condenser's job is to pretty much eliminate that spark when the points break. Otherwise they won't last too long. I just changed the points on my 857 last fall. I would not be surprised if they were original. They weren't burn't but I decided it was "time"

[tunahead72 2,423]

Good point Mike, thanks for the reminder.  There were only a few times I actually saw a spark at the points, and it was pretty random, not related to anything the engine was doing.  But it was a bright sunny day, I figured I just couldn't see it good enough.  If it hadn't started, I would have gotten out my spark plug tester and checked for spark there.

 

[WHX?? 48,823]

Maybe a little seafoam with that gas Ed... can't hurt. I don't remember if you cleaned the carb. 

[tunahead72 2,423]

Good idea Jim, I may try that later.  I've never used Seafoam before, but I always mix some Startron into my mower fuel supplies, and when this tractor is in Virginia it usually gets ethanol-free gas with some Stabil.

 

I did rebuild the carb and the entire fuel system before I started thinking I had an electrical problem, and then drained everything before I let the tractor sit too long.  But there could certainly be a little crap anywhere in that system that could be causing problems.  The engine's running pretty good at this point, but at the very least I'll replace the fuel filter and see how it goes after that.