What size hydraulics for DIY FEL?

[24-Seven 1]

Hi,

 

My first post here...

 

Just got a Wheel Horse 12 Automatic, plans are: Light resto, Ag tires and building a front end loader. I´m not that worried about the design (CAD), cutting and welding -part of building a front end loader, however I feel a bit lost when it comes to the hydraulics.I was planning on running a servo pump from a car to start with since I have a couple of those, but don't really know what piston diameters to run to get the right balace between speed and power.

 

Would be very greatful if someone could steer me in the right direction.

 

Thanks!

 

 

[Tractorhead 9,065]

Hi and  to 

 

A Car Servopump delivers between 90 and 110 Bar ( 1305 and 1596 PSI) of Pressure typically.

The Oil Volume flow differs between the pumps i know and start from 4 gpm up to 10 gpm.

 

On the follow Link you can find some good calculators to fix up you Setup.

https://www.hk-hydraulik.com/en/hydraulics-calculator

 

it depends directly on the maximum Load you wanna Lift and the Height you wanna Lift that Load.

It depends also on the Pivot points and the Lever Arm lenght’s 

how strong your Hydraulics must be and how fast you will move in result.

 

Useful Cylinder Calculator’s you can find under followed Link‘s

https://www.haenchen-hydraulic.com/technical-information/hydraulic-cylinder/calculation.html

Or here

https://en.ahp.de/products-and-services/products/hydraulic-cylinder/cylinder-calculator/

 

 

 

[24-Seven 1]

1 hour ago, Tractorhead said:

Hi and  to 

 

A Car Servopump delivers between 90 and 110 Bar ( 1305 and 1596 PSI) of Pressure typically.

The Oil Volume flow differs between the pumps i know and start from 4 gpm up to 10 gpm.

 

On the follow Link you can find some good calculators to fix up you Setup.

https://www.hk-hydraulik.com/en/hydraulics-calculator

 

it depends directly on the maximum Load you wanna Lift and the Height you wanna Lift that Load.

It depends also on the Pivot points and the Lever Arm lenght’s 

how strong your Hydraulics must be and how fast you will move in result.

 

Useful Cylinder Calculator’s you can find under followed Link‘s

https://www.haenchen-hydraulic.com/technical-information/hydraulic-cylinder/calculation.html

Or here

https://en.ahp.de/products-and-services/products/hydraulic-cylinder/cylinder-calculator/

 

 

 

Thank´s Tractorhead! 

 

This was exactly what I was looking for. 

 

At first glance the last link was easiest to use to get a simple overview of the hydraulic system. Using their calculator it seems like even a small servo pump with 4gpm (15 lpm) would be able to drive a pair of hydraulic cylinders with 40mm pistons at a speed of 100mm/sec, which is about what I´m looking for. I´m going to explore your other suggestions a little more as well but feel that I now have a good starting point.

 

Thank´s again!

[oliver2-44 9,929]

to 

Is my geography correct that your in Sweden?

 

On your loader build, be sure and verify the direction the servopump needs to turn verses where your going to mount it on the tractor.

Regarding "Servopump", is that what we in the US refer to as a "Power Steering Pump" ?

[Tractorhead 9,065]

Hi @24-Seven,

 

Servo or Powesteering Pumps are definitively usable for that.

If you don‘t act continousely on the Pressurelimits, they will last.

 

One thing i believe i found in your calculation, that maybe regret you later.

don‘t miss, you must half the speed in your equation of your Cylindre,

because you need the Lift cylindres double, each side one.

 

same if you work in tilt with 2 cylindres.

40mm piston are fast enough for a reasonable speed by a good Load ratio.

i would suggest get with 70 Bar Systempressure

 

as Pipediameters for a FEL System i would work with at least 10mm better 12mm,

all under are too thin and may restrict your system with causes nobody likes.

Depending on pipe length and worktimes your hydraulic fluid(oil) can get quick very hot,

 

 

Jim has also given an very important info, the spinning direction of the Pump.

i build 2 FEL‘s and in the first built, i used firstly a Servo Pump and had exactly this issue.

 

 

Another advice i like to spent,

if you don‘t have any lever now, buy the System on the Lift lever with a Float Valve from beginning.

That gives you a several possibility’s more, you can‘t imagine before and you regret if you haven‘t.

[24-Seven 1]

15 hours ago, oliver2-44 said:

to 

Is my geography correct that your in Sweden?

 

On your loader build, be sure and verify the direction the servopump needs to turn verses where your going to mount it on the tractor.

Regarding "Servopump", is that what we in the US refer to as a "Power Steering Pump" ?

Thank´s!!

 

You´re correct, I live in Sweden.  Not that many Wheel Horses around here unfortunately.

 

That's really good advice, must admit I did not consider the rotational direction of the pump, will check the pumps I have to see if they would work in the place I was thinking about mounting it.

 

 Here she is in honest (original) used condition, with newly mounted trailer hitch.

[24-Seven 1]

14 hours ago, Tractorhead said:

Hi @24-Seven,

 

Servo or Powesteering Pumps are definitively usable for that.

If you don‘t act continousely on the Pressurelimits, they will last.

 

One thing i believe i found in your calculation, that maybe regret you later.

don‘t miss, you must half the speed in your equation of your Cylindre,

because you need the Lift cylindres double, each side one.

 

same if you work in tilt with 2 cylindres.

40mm piston are fast enough for a reasonable speed by a good Load ratio.

i would suggest get with 70 Bar Systempressure

 

as Pipediameters for a FEL System i would work with at least 10mm better 12mm,

all under are too thin and may restrict your system with causes nobody likes.

Depending on pipe length and worktimes your hydraulic fluid(oil) can get quick very hot,

 

 

Jim has also given an very important info, the spinning direction of the Pump.

i build 2 FEL‘s and in the first built, i used firstly a Servo Pump and had exactly this issue.

 

 

Another advice i like to spent,

if you don‘t have any lever now, buy the System on the Lift lever with a Float Valve from beginning.

That gives you a several possibility’s more, you can‘t imagine before and you regret if you haven‘t.

 

Thank´s for the awesome feedback, and more great suggestions!

 

It´s my first time using an hydraulic calculator, so I appreciate you looking over my calculations. The front end loader will have 3 hydraulic cylinders (2 lift and 1 bucket tilt) but I entered "2" in the "Cylinder quantity" -field thinking that the bucket tilt cylinder would not demand that much flow, maybe I'm wrong in assuming that? I was planning on a bit of headroom in the pump capacity to handle that.

 

Great, I will try to run 12mm piping and have enough flow to run 70 bar pressure and double check the pump rotation. How much oil volume do you think would be sufficient to avoid the system running dry and get to hot?

 

My neighbour also mentioned the need for a float valve, this seems really useful. I have not yet ordered any parts so I will make shure to include this.

 

Thanks again for helping me out! 

 

 

[Tractorhead 9,065]

All of the European Powersteering pumps i know are counterclockwise in spinning while look onto pulley from Front.

 

i believe - but not be 100% sure all Servopumps spinning the same direction.

The Dimension on the reservoir depends how long you plan continouse full Load work.

 

on my First Design i used a 5 Liter Tank, that seems enough.

i planed a 50% Full Load for 5h at 20degC ambient temp.

Until now i didn‘t reached a Oiltemp over 65 degC even after 5h continuse use 2Years Ago in Winter.

i used it also as Snowplow, what was a lot of Fun more than with a Plow Shield.

 

I used 2 Cylindres with 40mm Piston (50mm Cylindre unidirectional), what changed the Oillevel from 5 to 4 Liters if completely Lifted.

The downlift was only done with Gravity,. This was the cheapest Cylindres i have found for my first Hydraulic Project,

but they dont have the ability to Dig (or better Lift the Tractor)

The next i planed with 40mm Doubleaction Cylindres, so a float is recommended to have same functionality

but also be able to Dig or lift the Frontaxle.

(nice function to lift the Frontaxle to grease)

 

The small FEL works with a Doubleaction Cylindre to Tilt with 32mm Piston and 25mm Rod.

The max Calculation on 180Bar systempressure is rated at 1,9To. push force and 900Kg of Pulling force.

Thats definitely Enough, depending on Lever reduction.

 

Here few Picts from my both selfbuilt FEL‘s

 

on my Wheel Horse

 

the Tank (with a breater Inlet) and a Oil Filter in Return Path

 

 

Here while Playing in Winter

 

 

 

 

 

Here a Pict where Cylindres are Visible.

This FEL is made of Aircraft Aluminum 

 

 

 

Here is a Compare from Wheelhorse 211 and my Iseki TX1300.

both can use the same Bucket with minimal mod‘s.

 

 

and the one on The Beast

 

While build

The Lift cylindres have a extended lenght of max 960mm  Liftheight on Bucket underside at max is 2.46m.

 

 

The Hydraulic valve block P40 4stage on the right Side.

 

 

Bucket with quickchanger and the 2 Tilt cylindres 35mmPiston and 25mm Rod

 

 

Also i highly suggesting a ROPS.

if heavier load is lifted high, the tilt point raises quickly on the Tractor.

One Point is a Counterweight to keep the tiltpoint down,

but a Roll Over Protection Structure is allway‘s a good idea.

 

In Europe i would suggesting Badestnost Valveblock P40.

the 40 litres Version is perfect suited and relatively cheap in Price.

Will be sold under different Brandnames

 

Enjoy your Build.

 

 

 

[24-Seven 1]

WOW!!  I am blown away by all the help you are providing me @Tractorhead 

 

Sorry for the late reply, we finally got a break from the two weeks of rain we been having so I have not been on the computer much.

 

I really like the look of your FEL -builds and thank´s for including all the helpful info! Can´t wait to get started with my own build now.

 

I hear you on the need of a ROPS, with a lift height of 2,5 metres I can see why that is needed. Since a rollover is scary even if you have ROPS I was thinking of limiting the lift height to somewhere between 1,2 and 1,5 metres to minimize the risk.  

 

Would have been great to do one in aluminium (it must be super light?) but I can only weld unfortunately.

 

Thank´s again! 

[Tractorhead 9,065]

The ROPS can also be helpful on 1,2 meters on a Slope.

 

Remember, the frontaxle have a bearing that make it able to level the Tractor also on uneven places.

 

With heavier Load oin the Bucket, your Gravity goes more and more in direction to the Frontaxle.

So the whole Tractor gets more instability and can flip to a side, if you are in a slope, i think ya understand.

The ROPS in my humble opinion will allway‘s necessary with any FEL.

 

i nearly flipped my Horse and also the Beast, just by a light wobble. 

that can be enough to get that side force that tilts you.

 

A heavier Counterweight 2/3 of max weight in the Back on a deep Point rear is only a step in the right direction, 

But a ROPS shall also help you, if the Tractor gets that small fingertip to tilt without any Load.

 

it doesn‘t be any kind of height, it‘s the same like gloves while Flex some steel.

it doesn‘t hurt but it saves Life.

 

Here on my site last year a younger guy died, because dismounted his ROPS while he want‘s to resto it

another bad was, he was working in a hurry and fliped the Tractor.

Bit bigger than mine, but with his ROPS he had survived that Crash.

 

i build the Steel FEL realy heavy, because i wanted a official Road approval for Germany - and i got it finally.

the whole FEL on the Beast is made of Steel weights 120 Kilos include hydraulic valves.

max. Liftcapacity is easily over 4 To. But i restricted it just for 250Kilos for the approval to have enough safety.

 

The cost of the Aircraft Aluminum 6m Pipe is about double the Price of the whole Steelframe and the complete fork on the Beast.

what i wanna tell you, save that money, built it from steel, you can fix it on your side if anything needs to be inforced or fixed.

 

Let me see what you build (Picts are urgently needed of each step, ya know they be the salt in the soup)

and we all Love Picts.

 

and here exist a strong common rule - nothing is happen without Picts.. 👍😎🤪😂