Motor cycle fencing

[Mickwhitt 4,592]

Hi all,

We have been fighting a long running battle with brain dead off road bikers on the playing fields near our home.

They cause noise and damage but the police cant catch them to deal with them.

The fields used to be part of a school and were fenced with concrete post and chain link fencing. The posts remain but the fence mesh is long gone.

Bikes can access it in several places.

I have some ideas for closing off the gaps, making it harder for the bikes to get on the land. 

Apart from firearms and anti personnel mines, which we cant get hold of here,  does anyone have any suggestions for robust and cheap ways to stop bikes?

Bear in mind regular folks need to use the paths on foot and with dogs so bear traps, wires across the posts etc are out, believe me I have considered them.

Mick 

 

 

[WHX?? 48,787]

No ideas here Mick but with the title I thought they was fencing  on motor bikes?!?! 

[SylvanLakeWH 25,493]

Piano wire at neck level is probably over-kill (pardon the pun)...

 

Sturdy chain / cable strung between posts with an occasional zig / zag cattle gate to allow pedestrians but no motorcycles?

 

[8ntruck 6,991]

[peter lena 8,583]

mick , how about a trail camera? https://www.google.com/search?q=trail+camera&sxsrf=ALeKk03A1x2NrkItBeIKCpSIVZ_BPjJn4g:1589907222206&source=univ&tbm=shop&tbo=u&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj969H5scDpAhWJmHIEHSqJDfIQsxh6BAgVECw&biw=1024&bih=625 , maybe  you or a neighbor has one to regularly show whats going on . a facial view or cycle markings turned over to local law enforcement , should do it . pete

[stevasaurus 22,710]

Put up a toll booth and charge admission.  Is this Public Land??

[Buzz 502]

4 hours ago, WHX24 said:

No ideas here Mick but with the title I thought they was fencing  on motor bikes?!?! 

 

They used to play polo on Harleys and Indians when I was growing up in the 1950s so why not fencing?

[formariz 11,987]

Although not exactly the same situation since this was regarding my property,when I moved into this place 37 years ago, I was 25, and although I was pretty responsible then, I was really impetuous, fearless and "many times "without much sense.

Unknown to me I had a next  property neighbor who had a son who was a known problem in town. I should have realized it already as I was moving in and he decided to paint a swastika on the electrical post facing the house while we watched. It was the first confrontation of many and on that one he left with no shirt, and with another swastika partially painted on his forehead. Moving forward then more trouble started where him and his friends would cut through my property constantly very late at night to hang out in a shed in the back of their property smoking weed. They were loud and always made sure they would not only wake up everyone but also litter the place with all kinds of trash. My wife was of course terrified and questioned daily the decision to buy this property. Went to the police and they basically told me that kid was a known town problem and they essentially could not do anything about it since they could not watch him and his friends all the time.Furious as I was I basically told them that if that was the case they now had another problem which would be me and I would do something about it for sure. So one night  against the better judgement of my wife I just waited for them in the shadows with a baseball bat in hand. Sure enough here they come making a big racket. I stood out in front of them and told them that whether it would be one at a time or all at once, I did not care for the first in line was definitely going to get hurt and then unless they killed me this was going to happen every single time they crossed into my property. They yelled,cursed, threatened, but sure enough no one wanted to be the first. So they turned around and that particular problem was solved. There were others over a period of time, which were resolved in a similar manner until fortunately they moved away.

I wouldn't recommend these approaches to anyone, and for sure I would not take them today ( I think), but the point is that if one continues to allow such behaviors they only become convinced it is OK to do it. You have to make the point in a convincing way that it just will not be tolerated. Unfortunately specially in today's world the police's hands are tied in many ways by bureaucratic and legal issues and that allows these behaviors to flourish. All that it would take would be a few stern warnings from them to avoid the possibility that what I did could have been tragic. Although I have more sense today (?) I still will not tolerate any disrespectful or intrusive behavior towards me or any of my family and it will be addressed immediately.

[stevasaurus 22,710]

Cas, we have a lot to talk about at the next Big Show at the Tail Gate of Knowledge.  Of all the neighbors I have had, I had some......trash living next to me.  You might get a kick out of how I handled some of it.  The city finally did evict them, but it got crazy.  

   I would have loved to see you paint that guys forehead!!  WOW!!!  Fantastic.  

 

 

[formariz 11,987]

41 minutes ago, stevasaurus said:

but it got crazy.  

Yes many stories here too. Most would have probably moved out if they knew everything I was about to go through . That very first incident was pretty bad. I was 25 and my partner at work and friend was Zev who I have mentioned before was a Holocaust survivor and had a long number tattooed on his left arm . I totally lost my mind upon the sight of him painting it on the pole, not only did I not think another second but from what everyone helping me move in said , before anyone could do anything about it I was immediately on top of him with my knees on his chest and the can of paint in my hand. The reason I did not complete my artwork is because a couple of people pulled me from him. I guess that convinced him and his friends at the bat incident later on, that I meant what I was saying which I did. I probably would have not won that one but it did not matter.

[Stormin 9,981]

Covertly film them, Mike. Face shot's and bikes. Times and dates. Then hand over to the police. Get on to your local councillors as well.

[WHX?? 48,787]

I still say take up fencing.. 

[bc.gold 3,403]

Sounds like a case for Judge Judy, seriously though file a private information with the court. The procedure I'm sure will be similar in the Country you reside.

 

Generally, allegations of criminal activity are reported to the police. After the police investigate, they may lay criminal charges.

 

However, anyone who has reasonable grounds to believe that a person has committed an offence may lay an information in writing and under oath before a Justice of the Peace.

When the information is presented to the court by a private citizen, it is then referred to either a provincial court judge or a designated justice of the peace, who holds a special hearing.  The purpose of the hearing is to determine whether a summons or warrant should be issued to compel the person to attend court and answer to the charge.

This hearing, held under s. 507.1 of the Criminal Code, takes place in private, without notice to the accused person.  At the hearing, the judge or justice of the peace must hear and consider all of the allegations and available evidence.

The Crown must also receive a copy of the information,  get notice of the hearing, and have an opportunity to attend.  The Crown may attend at the hearing without being deemed to intervene in the proceedings.

If the judge or justice of the peace decides not to issue a summons or a warrant, then the information is deemed never to have been laid.

If the judge or justice of the peace issues a summons, the person will be served with a copy of the summons, which notifies them of the charge and compels them to attend court.  If the judge or justice of the peace issues a warrant, the person will be arrested and brought before a justice.

To avoid any abuse of the private prosecution process, the Criminal Code and the Crown Attorneys Act authorize Crown Counsel to supervise privately laid charges to ensure that such prosecutions are in the best interest of the administration of justice.  If a summons or warrant is issued and the case involves an indictable offence, the Crown is required to take over the prosecution.  So, a private citizen's right to swear an information is always subject to the Crown's right to intervene and take over the prosecution.

If the Crown intervenes, the Crown will review the matter, as it does in every other criminal case, to determine whether there is a reasonable prospect of conviction and whether a prosecution is in the public interest.  If so, the Crown will proceed with the prosecution.  If not, the Crown is duty-bound to withdraw the charge.

[bc.gold 3,403]

United Kingdom July 3 2014

Introduction

The old adage that there are two sides to every story rings particularly true in the case of noise disputes. One man's party is another man's nightmare; one neighbour's new investment property is another's noise hell; one party's business is another party's lost sleep.

On the one hand, everyone has the right to full and peaceful use of their property. On the other hand, everyone is entitled to enjoy their property and to carry out such works or activities as they need to do. Consequently there will be times when making noise is unavoidable, particularly on redevelopment sites or where the nature of an occupier's business is, by its very nature, noisy. The following tips should assist both sides to understand their rights.

What legal rights exist to curtail excessive noise?

If you allow excessive noise to emanate from your land, you run the risk of being sued under the law of nuisance.  Nuisance claims can be divided into three categories: private nuisance, public nuisance and statutory nuisance. In summary:

• Private nuisance arises where someone does something on their land that unlawfully interferes with someone else's enjoyment of their own land, or causes damage to their property. This covers a wide range of activities, from redevelopment and work related activities, to playing loud music and barking dogs. For example, in the recent case of Kartikeya Solutions Ltd (t/a Unique Children's Home) v Secretary of State for Communities and Local Government [2013], the Court found that noise and other disturbances were sufficient to refuse planning permission for the continued use of a property as a children's home. Even Madonna was once the subject of a claim brought by a neighbour in Manhattan, complaining of "loud music and dancing" emanating from Madonna's property.
• Public and statutory nuisance can arise where someone does something on their land that unlawfully interferes with the public's rights at large. The Environmental Protection Act 1990 sets out various provisions in respect of this and criminal sanctions can apply.  For example, a public or statutory nuisance may arise where a party operates a  factory throughout the night in a residential area, causing noise and disturbance to local residents.

What noise is sufficiently excessive to cause a nuisance?

This is a subjective question and the levels of noise that are deemed to be excessive or harmful will vary.  There is no absolute legal right to peace and quiet, but the following factors will be important when considering if a nuisance is being caused:

• The volume of the noise, as measured from the claimant's land.  
• The hour of day when the noise is emitted. Noise emitted in working hours is less likely to constitute a nuisance than noise in the middle of the night.
• The location of the property, as noted in the case of Struges v Bridgman (1879), where the judge said, somewhat dismissively: "What would be a nuisance in Belgravia Square would not necessarily be so in Bermondsey".
• Whether the defendant was being reasonable. The Court will recognise that some noise pollution is inevitable in urban environments, or in certain circumstances, for example where a defendant needed to effect repairs to its premises.
• Whether the defendant is making the noise deliberately, in order to annoy or irritate the claimant. Clearly if this is the case, it is more likely to be held to be a nuisance.

What to do?

The priority of most potential claimants will be to stop the noise being made as soon as possible.  An injunction may be sought for this at Court, but Local Councils also have a duty to prevent excessive noise that amounts to a statutory nuisance. If a noisy neighbour does not respond to a polite request, the cheapest and most effective way to deal with the problem may be to call the Local Council to complain. 

However, Councils will not always be willing to step in, so a good understanding of your private rights and remedies will be important from the outset. If the noise is not an isolated incident, start to keep a noise diary of all occurrences, as explained below. 

Injunctions will only be granted at the Court's discretion, so it will be important to take early legal advice and, if appropriate, to ensure that an application is made at Court without delay. When deciding whether to grant an injunction, the Court will also consider all of the facts of the case, including whether the noise maker can be compensated in damages, if the noise maker later proves at a full trial that it acted lawfully. This may result in an applicant being obliged to give an undertaking to pay damages in these circumstances, as a precondition to obtaining an injunction. However, where an applicant proves that it is suffering a clear infringement to its legal rights, and that damages will not suffice to remedy this, an injunction may be ordered.

Noise abatement notices

If the noise is sufficiently serious to constitute a statutory nuisance, a local authority may serve an abatement notice on the perpetrator, to oblige him or her to stop making the noise within a specified period.

In practice, as noise can usually be stopped quickly, some notices will oblige the addressee to stop the noise immediately. Failure to comply with the notice may lead to criminal sanctions, but the recipient will have an opportunity to appeal after it has been served.

What damages can be recovered?

In cases of noise related nuisance, there is unlikely to be any physical damage to the afflicted property. Any damages awarded will therefore be based on the Court's calculation of the claimant's loss of enjoyment of their land, which can be difficult to quantify. One method that has been used was to review the diminution in the value of the land because of the noise.  However, the Court will take all the facts into account when making its decision.

Noise diaries

If you are considering taking action in respect of noise, we recommend that you start to keep a noise diary to evidence your claim.

Equally, if you are likely to face a claim, keeping a diary can be very helpful to evidence your "reasonableness". When completing diaries such as these, we would recommend that you include details of:

• how loud the noise is (using a noise meter if possible);
• the type of noise;
• the likely cause of the noise;
• how often it occurs and the time it lasts for; and
• the time of day when the noise is emitted.

Making noise for a temporary period

In circumstances where you cannot avoid making noise, you should take steps to ensure that you are acting reasonably at all times. For example, if you are redeveloping a site in an urban environment, it would be advisable to restrict noise making activities to ordinary working hours. You should also comply with any guidance/restrictions issued by the local authority, as part of the planning permission process.  Working with affected parties should reduce the chances of a claim being made, so keeping them informed of timescales and progress can assist.

Conclusion

As noted above, there is no legal right to enjoy peace and quiet. However, there are circumstances where the law will consider noise to be excessive. Potential claimants and defendants should therefore review whether they consider noise being made to be lawful or unlawful, applying the factors set out above. A party that is seeking to carry out noisy works or a noisy activity from a property should seek advice before starting.

If the matter becomes contentious, we recommend seeking early advice to ensure that your position is protected.

Taylor Wessing - Edward Cooper

[Mickwhitt 4,592]

Some really good thoughts here, I'm trying to find something different that has not been tried before.

Do what you've always done and you'll get what you always got is a saying I believe in. If you repeat the failed efforts of before you will always fail.

Our cops simply chase these bikes away, only to have them come back a little later. 

Engaging with the riders does not work as they are basically criminal and dont care too much for the rule of law. Plus as one lot grow out of it more replace them to cause nuisance.

I'm seeing my council parks department supervisor today to discuss some options and i will be seeing my local police bosses in due course to see what their views are on the problem.

Cas hit the nail on the head when he said you have to stand up to this kind of bullying. Problem is our law enforcement guys would rather deal with me for assaulting the poor misunderstood offender than in actually dealing with the offender. It's quite maddening.

If I could ride a motorbike I may buy a rapier and have a go at fencing with these idiots. Or jousting might be fun. Ride toward each other with a lance and  try to unseat your opponent. Might catch on...

[midpack 862]

so, it's not your property and overgrown but you don't like the way others are enjoying it?  ok, right

[Mickwhitt 4,592]

Midpack

 

It is a public open space, not just lump of overgrown land no one cares for.

There is a difference between enjoying the land and damaging it.

There are legitimate ways to use off road vehicles, not ride them illegally on public roads to get to an area where they should not be using them. Responsible riders are no problem, it's the idiots without helmets, documents and with no respect for anything that we are trying to discourage.

Whichever way you slice it they are breaking the law, if you are saying they should be left alone to have their fun I'm sorry but you are wrong. We either all stick to the law or things will break down.

Plus you live in a big country with big spaces and room to do crazy things. We do not, space is at a premium and there is no room for  bike riders to have this kind of fun. 

As ex police I can relate tales of when these thrill seeking idiots get it wrong and end up dead, crippled or do the same to some innocent person. Please dont take this the wrong way but you dont appreciate how things are where I live so you cant sit in judgement.

Best regards

Mick 

 

 

 

[Pullstart 62,796]

I’ve been on both sides of this fence.  (There’s a pun!) I was young and dumb but not criminal.  The field across the street was vacant for years and when I got my first quad, it was good as mine.  Why would it hurt a thing?  I didn’t take into consideration the amount of times I rolled it like a wagon wheel trying to do one wheeled catwalks... no helmet of course.  I didn’t take into consideration that they would have been subject to all kinds of trouble if I was hurt and my mother sued.  Did I mean any harm?  Absolutely not.  Was I in the wrong?  Yep.  Now 15 ish years later, I’m a home and land owner and have been working on creating a habitat in my back 6.5 acres.  Snow comes and everyone assumes that all land is public land it seems.  I’ve not had an issue now that the grasses are a few feet tall, but my fresh seeded wheatgrass has been rampaged a couple times.  At first, I had all those thoughts of harm and retaliation but in true fashion I just want some wildlife to look at and occasionally chew on.  
 

So I have no good input to your issue Mick, but I hope things can be resolved.  Those juveniles might look at the land like there is no other logical use for it, that they aren’t harming a thing.  The field owner might have been building a bird sanctuary and I had no clue. You never know...

[Pullstart 62,796]

Forgot one thing.  I mentioned I was young and dumb.  Forgot to mention I’m not too much less dumb.. just a bit older.

[WHX?? 48,787]

Can you (the public) put up no motorized vehicle sign? Maybe pass a local ordinance? Doubt that would stop them but maybe give the law some more ammo? 

[Mickwhitt 4,592]

I know there us their side if the issue, believe me I have tried to engage with them, find out what they want, how to solve our differences.

There are some who will look at it from other angles and will change their ways, some who genuinely didnt know it was against the law and will stop and some who do it purely because they know it's against the law and they like the buzz of being a rebel.

It's the latter ones we are unable to deal with and persuade there are better things to do with their time and the land. 

I'm not a kill joy, I'm not an old fuddy duddy, I believe in the rule of law and I abide by it. 

Our laws are basically all criminal acts, even enquiries about not wearing a seat belt are criminal investigations and subject to the police and criminal evidence act 1984. We criminalise people needlessly in this country and cause damage to lives sometimes due to youthful stupidity or not thinking. Maybe things will change as the criminal justice system is basically dead in the water due to the virus. 

Many of the issues I would have dealt with by way of a friendly word  a stern warning or a bit of education are now dealt with formally for fear of being criticised.  Hence lots of criminal records and lives written off before they have begun. 

That also has the negative effect that the police are loath to spoil any paper because it gets so complex, so rather than deal with things they simply scare people away with the sirens.

One of the same group of bikers was killed just over a month ago, in the next village to ours, pulling wheelies on the road with no helmet. The police got it in the neck for not doing anything to save him from himself. If that's having fun, count me out.

Mick 

 

 

 

[Tractorhead 9,064]

My experiences with such scenario.

with about 16 i get my first Motocycle, tuning and do stupid things with the Bikes was our biggest goal, no matter about the noise the Bike emit or how stupid our riding was.

On Road we have sometimes unwanted contact with the Police and they have disliked our escapades, 

they hunt us sometimes and we try to hide us, but one time we decide to ride more Offroad to keep our driver license.

 

We search for a Areal and found one where we drive until it’s dark.

Do some stupid tricks jumped and sometimes smash the bike because of less experience.

We drive there before without any permission, even on a Property of a older Man until he stopped us and get with us in touch.
He beg us for tolerance after 20:00 PM he like it silent here, earlier he will tolerance our cross rides and he allowed us to drive even in his Gravel Plant.

He had a loveley gravel plant, where we than was allowed to drive since.
We was a group of about 12 Youngsters close the same Age.
Seven of us had own motorbikes, we shared with the non owners to have some Fun.

 

After that conversation it develops, we put a eye on his Machines nobody will hurt his property or damage his machines 
and we can use the whole Plant for our Off- Road training.
That was a Win Win situation for both of us for a few Years.

Based on opposite respect and tolerance we had a perfect Agreement,

just our Parents need to sign we beeing allowed to drive and we be responsible for ourself.

He did this for his insurance to be out of responsibilities.

 

Few years later our Area expands and new family‘s come with their Kids.
There was several Kids in same Age, but only 2Brothers with absolutely disrespect for everything even ownership of others.
That was just 2 Boy’s the same Age, but they didn’t respect our Agreement or even his Machines or Property.

They do what they wan't, no talking to them helps. 
So we bound them out and restricted our Area and later even real troubles occur because of their stupid and disrespect.
They steal all what wasn‘t fixed with nails and destroy our Agreement with him and also destroy and steal his and our Things.
After that story we lost also our place where we can drive.

 

So we search another Place without the 2 honks and found one at a untouched Area what we called „ the Dessert“
it was an old Railroad property, that was deactivated and leave allone.
Far from any Traffic or villages in the middle of „nowhere“ no Houses, nothing to disturb, a blast for us.
The next possibillity to legally Drive was 150Km far, a distance that was completley out of discussion for us.
once a mounth a Policecar was present, take a closer look what we do there and told us the Advice,

if anything happens, we are responsible for ourself.

Than they noted our Licenceplates and leave the Scenario. It becomes a unwritten rule in the Dessert what we can do
and what we must avoid.
That happens so long until sadly the 2 idiots find also that Place.

They drove with an old beetle there and after Car stalls they burn it down.

Again our inofficial Agreement was smashed and we had again no place to Drive..

my result after that experiences is:
 it doesn‘t matter how upright you are,
after a timeline, there are allway‘s at least one or two idiot‘s, they destroy the enjoy of others with their disrespect and ignore of rules.
The sad is, they can be found in any term of Life.
 

[Stormin 9,981]

10 hours ago, midpack said:

so, it's not your property and overgrown but you don't like the way others are enjoying it?  ok, right

 

  Micks right in what he says. But there's also the fact people live nearby. Up to 10yrs ago I've had motorcycles since I was 16, so I'm not anti motorcycle. But I wouldn't like riders tearing around near my home making a racket.

  My eldest grandson when he was about 15, bought one of those mini moto race bikes. He wanted to keep it here, as his stepfathers father, who lives nearby unfortunately, said he could ride it up and down the lane. I said no and he hadn't to ride it on the lane. We do have other neighbours and though we're an out of the way community, it would have been illegal for him to have done so.

  One day he rode down the lane from around the corner from the Brain of Britain's house, where unknown to me he'd been keeping it. He got the riot act. Told he could get a criminal record or worse find himself coming of worse with a car or tractor. I also took the bike off him and took  it to his own home.

  This wasn't the first time, though it was the last, B of B had said it was alright to do something I'd told him not too. I always explained why. B of B also got some choice words that day.