No movement from D-180

[3WHDave 60]

Cutting to the chase, my 1974 D-180 (s/n 1-0611) starts great, but will not budge.  The sound it makes of lumbering (straining) when put in gear, but it acts like there is a brake on.

Here are the specifics:

·         My year has a three position motion control lever, forward/reverse/park.

·         The motion control forks always seem to become disengaged from the arm, a busing/washer may be missing

·         The hydraulic pump shaft/spline clearly rotates with the engine (however, this may be deceiving as it may slip under load, I with put a witness mark on the shaft and coupler and see if there is movement under load)

·         Hydro-oil has been changed and is at the right level (the dip-stick is impossible to reach, an extension fill-pipe and new dip-stick are on the list)

·         Q: The three-point hydraulic lift works fine.  Is this powered by the same pump as the drive train?

·         Q: Is there an internal brake within the hydro-static drive system?  It feels like a brake is stuck.

·         What am I missing before removing pump?

 

Jumping ahead: If the answer points to pump, is it easiest to remove the motor and pull it from the front?

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 11,096]

Have absolutely no experience with this but some suffered from a broken bolt in the differential carrier. It would prevent the axles from turning when it would slide out and catch on the case and sometimes break the case.

Does that sound like what is happening?

 

Garry

[3WHDave 60]

I don’t feel anything binding in the differential, and the unit pushes easy with the push valve open.  Also, the differential seems to work when on jack stands.  I’m leaning towards a “stuck” pump member/piston. The engine had not been run in decades and I had to use a breaker bar to free-up the engine. I’m thinking the pump is frozen. I put some Seafoam in the hydro oil, going to let it do it’s job under minimal load.  I plan on chaining the tractor to a tree, placing it in drive (slightly) and letting it run for 20 minutes (while on a grassy surface). Heat, time and chemicals may free it up.  Otherwise, let’s face it, I’m headed to rebuild land,

[3WHDave 60]

PS: thank you for your input, I will look into it.  

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 11,096]

Lift and drive powered by same pump.

 

Garry

[pfrederi 17,876]

If the lift operates charge pump is OK.  The only "internal" brake is the parking pawl in the transaxle.  When you move the motion control linkage into the park slot the linkage should actuate the pawl.  If the parking pawl is stuck you would not be able to roll the tractor so I guess we can eliminate that.

 

When you move the motion control lever is the shaft that goes into the right side of the hydro pump moving?  Is it really hard to move the motion control lever?  That shaft tilts the swash plate.  if there were frozen/stuck slippers in the piston block I would think you would have a hard time tilting the swash plate add to that the charge pump works i would think the pump part is not your  issue...

 

Removal of the pump is one of the more "fun" WH projects.  You have to move the engine, look at the sunstrand manual.

 

If you suspect internal corrosion I would look harder at the hydro motor.  That sits low and if there was water in the system it would be more suseptable.  It is also a whole lot easier to pull it and see what the slippers and piston block look like.

[3WHDave 60]

Thank for all the input Gary and Paul.  The shaft going into the hydro pump is rotating, and when I put it in forward position, the motor bogs down as if it were under load.  Additionally, when I place it in forward, the motor bogs down even more when I use the lift lever, the motor slows more and the lift moves rapidly and freely.  I will look at the rear hydro motor.  I think that may be the culprit.  PS: I did chain it to a tree and ran the the unit in the drive position just to see if something loosens up.  I let it run for 15 minutes, and then shut it off.  I will let the Seafoam penetrate the moving fluid path, and then try again.  As for the hydro motor, any rebuild tricks I should know about?

 

PS: I actually like diagnosing such issues.  Now, if it was a MS Windows 10 issue, "I'd take a flame thrower to it" (sic, Al Pacino, closing scene, Scent of a Woman)

[3WHDave 60]

Update:  I traced the issue to the rear end.  The motor turns just fine, and with no load, the axle turns, but if I hold the rear axle by hand, the motor remains turning yet the axle stops.  A sheared key or bolt I'm guessing.  Any suggestions on how best to remove the differential would be appreciated.  and, I assume there are two main keys to look for, motor-to-pinion shaft and pinion shaft-to-pinion gear.

[pfrederi 17,876]

Interesting discovery and it would follow the diagnostics in the manual.  what i do not understand is why the engine labored when you engaged the motion control.  one would think with a sheared key there would be little resistance .  that laboring was why I really didn't consider the sheared woodruff key issue...  Live and learn..

 

You will have to remove the transaxle from the tractor.  Instructions are in the manual. The removal of the hubs is the only hard part.  Have you had yours off??  Be careful pulling them if thy resist you can break them as the flange is relatively thin compared to the length of the hub body.  If thy do not come off easily you have to pull them from the back.   Mine put up a heck of a fight.    hope yours go easily

 

 

[pacer 3,174]

I;m thinking of one of the things in the 2nd post that was mentioned -

 

8 hours ago, gwest_ca said:

from a broken bolt in the differential carrier. It would prevent the axles from turning when it would slide out and catch on the case and sometimes break the case

 

My memory is a bit fuzzy on my doing this - was some 10 yrs ago - but I think its possible that a bolt has broken in that carrier mentioned by gwest and has maybe broken some teeth off or ??? That was/is a pretty common flaw in the earlier D's. When it happened to mine it blew out the bottom of both case sides and damaged the carrier. It would move but --- jerky? Of course I did have a pretty good clue that something drastic had happened, oil was pouring out!!!

 

That and a sheared key.....

 

 I think you have several of us really caught up in your deal, its sure got something different going on..... keep us posted!

[3WHDave 60]

Thanks for the feedback, all.  I was hoping that it was a key on the hydraulic motor (I have no clue if it is keyed or a spline), and that pulling the motor from the side would reveal an easier fix than removal of the whole trans-axle.  Now for the bummer news:  When I bout the machine, a young man helped move it from the small open barn using a skid-loader.  I recall that the rear wheels were "locked-up", dragging the tractor across the grass.  When he pushed it onto the trailer, they "broke free", the truth, something broke all-right, and I guess I will find out.  If anyone has experience with what commonly brakes under such a situation, please let be know.  Headed to the garage!

[pfrederi 17,876]

If the parking brake was set and they pushed it with a skid steer something had to give.  That your parking brake still works, or at least isn't locked up leans to a key giving way ...Still not sure why the engine bogs when you try to move her...

[daveoman1966 3,762]

For what it's worth, and if it helps, here is the schematic of the 1974 D-180 gearbox.  Also posting a pic of the internal Parking Pawl that pfrederi mentions. It is item 4-33 in the schematic.  

As for whatever 'broke free' in the gearbox...

be suspicious of a broken axle gear (4-24) inside the differential...might have taken out a pinion gear (4-27) or more as well.  

 

 

[3WHDave 60]

Thank you for the exploded view, it is exactly what I need.  I’m betting on one of the keys on the primary input shaft, item #4-32. However, that does not answer the free wheeling when pushed. I will take pics as I go, perhaps even a video reveal!  

[3WHDave 60]

Thanks for the feedback, all.  I was hoping that it was a key on the hydraulic motor (I have no clue if it is keyed or a spline), and that pulling the motor from the side would reveal an easier fix than removal of the whole trans-axle.  Now for the bummer news:  When I bout the machine, a young man helped move it from the small open barn using a skid-loader.  I recall that the rear wheels were "locked-up", dragging the tractor across the grass.  When he pushed it onto the trailer, they "broke free", the truth, something broke all-right, and I guess I will find out.  If anyone has experience with what commonly brakes under such a situation, please let be know.  Headed to the garage!

[3WHDave 60]

Blow-by-blow update: the assembly is out, took much less effort than I anticipated, but I am sure the challenge is yet to come.  I can be use the parking pawl is OK as I found it had been disconnected and wired in the Unlocked position.  Is that similar to putting black tape over the engine warning light?

 

Now (Paul, et.al.), I'm about to remove the hubs.  Can I get away with removing only one hub?  If so, should it be the left hub?

 

PS: Remind me to tell you all about my placing a leaf-spring on the differential of my Model A when I was 15, lucky to be alive and I think I aged my dad in one act.

[pfrederi 17,876]

39 minutes ago, 3WHDave said:

Blow-by-blow update: the assembly is out, took much less effort than I anticipated, but I am sure the challenge is yet to come.  I can be use the parking pawl is OK as I found it had been disconnected and wired in the Unlocked position.  Is that similar to putting black tape over the engine warning light?

 

Now (Paul, et.al.), I'm about to remove the hubs.  Can I get away with removing only one hub?  If so, should it be the left hub?

 

PS: Remind me to tell you all about my placing a leaf-spring on the differential of my Model A when I was 15, lucky to be alive and I think I aged my dad in one act.

Yes left...but really try to get both.  Disassembling the differential inside the half case is awkward and time consuming.

[3WHDave 60]

Blow-by-blow update: the assembly is out, took much less effort than I anticipated, but I am sure the challenge is yet to come.  I can be use the parking pawl is OK as I found it had been disconnected and wired in the Unlocked position.  Is that similar to putting black tape over the engine warning light?

 

Now (Paul, et.al.), I'm about to remove the hubs.  Can I get away with removing only one hub?  If so, should it be the left hub?

 

PS: Remind me to tell you all about my placing a leaf-spring on the differential of my Model A when I was 15, lucky to be alive and I think I aged my dad in one act.

[3WHDave 60]

OK, the verdict is in..... broke key on the primary input shaft!  And to add insult to the whole process, the snap-ring came of the axle spine inside the planetary differental, so im headed to the machine shop to have the groove cleaned-up for a wider (from 0.090" to 0.100")  snap-ring.

[pfrederi 17,876]

These are what I use sharp edge towards the inner end of the axle.

 

 

[pfrederi 17,876]

Glad you have found the issue.  Still I can't understand why the engine labored when you engaged the motion control.  You would think the busted key would have let the shaft spin freely.......

[3WHDave 60]

Thank you for the key info, I will use same.  As for the laboring, I think it was simply the natural labor associated with pumping fluid, and not the sound associated with stalling a drive.  I will say “laboring” is a rather subjective description.  Also, as big a pain in the rear as this project has been, I am still totally jazzed to see what this tractor can do!

[pacer 3,174]

A comment on the parking brake pawl---- my self and others simply remove the thing. There are just too many incidents where this thing has dropped while in motion and talk about some damage! This is especially true in your tractor with that 3 position motion lever set-up you have.

 

I not only threw the pawl away but also removed all that tangle of linkage that was supposed to engage it and then I blocked off that lever park position so the motion lever could not get hung in it --- AGAIN!! ever !!

 

Off hand I cannot think of a situation where I actually felt I needed a park brake anyway....

[3WHDave 60]

The parking pawl is out.  I see no need to risk the failure mode for something I will not use.  I did think about leaving it in an making a permanent lock-out, letting the next person decide what they want with it, but that is like building a house for resale rather than for living in.  I carry wheel chocks anyway, comes from pulling a camper.

[3WHDave 60]

Major set-back: the needle bearing in the axle housing fell out. I’ve worked many years with bearings, they are supposed to be trapped. Any resources out there for replacement bearings?