Is this normal

[Lagersolut 677]

FThe first video is pushing the tractor forward in neutral ... has a slight tapping sound - the part that’s confusing me if you Jack it up and turn a wheel it’s quiet 

 and both wheels turn in the opposite direction like they should ... no noise ... nothings loose , no leaks .. no play in anything ... no noise in any of the gears when running or mowing ... just drifting forward or back in neutral .... none of my other 4  horses do this . 

Edited April 22, 2020 by Lagersolut

[Achto 27,769]

57 minutes ago, Lagersolut said:

FThe first video is pushing the tractor forward in neutral ... has a slight tapping sound

 

It sounds just like my Eaton transmissions when I push them any distance. My Sundstrand tranny's do not make that sound.

[lynnmor 7,354]

Eaton will click like that, keep pushing and towing to a minimum.   With wheels going in opposite directions, the Eaton is doing nothing.  Everything is normal.

[pfrederi 17,879]

Since this is a gear drive not an Eaton that noise is NOT normal.  What model tractor is it?

[stevasaurus 22,866]

When you are pushing a tractor in a straight line, the pinions in the differential are doing nothing.  The whole differential is turning and turning the bull gear and then the mushroom gear and the small reduction pinion at the bottom of the cluster gear shaft, the cluster gear shaft and the large reduction gear on the top.

   When you have the back end up in the air and turn one of the wheels...now you are turning the pinions in the differential...and that is all that is turning.  All other gears are static.  Soooo...your differential is OK.

   The noise is not natural.  You have teeth that are not quite meshing properly.  My guess is the needle bearing under the large end of the mushroom gear is worn or bad enough to have some slack.  When you push the tractor, you have the wheels turning the differential and thus the bull gear, then the mushroom gear, then the reduction pinion.  When you are driving the tractor, you are turning everything starting with the input gear and it all happens in reverse...all the way to the wheels.  The slack may be gone under load thus no clicking...or it could be enough less that you do not hear it.

   Jack up the rear end of the tractor, start and put into 1st gear.  Now take a long screwdriver and use it like a stethoscope...with the handle on your ear and the blade at different points on the transmission.  Be careful here.  The bearing I think it is would be just in front of the right side axle.   

[Lagersolut 677]

1 hour ago, pfrederi said:

Since this is a gear drive not an Eaton that noise is NOT normal.  What model tractor is it?

 

 

1988 416-8

[Lagersolut 677]

41 minutes ago, stevasaurus said:

When you are pushing a tractor in a straight line, the pinions in the differential are doing nothing.  The whole differential is turning and turning the bull gear and then the mushroom gear and the small reduction pinion at the bottom of the cluster gear shaft, the cluster gear shaft and the large reduction gear on the top.

   When you have the back end up in the air and turn one of the wheels...now you are turning the pinions in the differential...and that is all that is turning.  All other gears are static.  Soooo...your differential is OK.

   The noise is not natural.  You have teeth that are not quite meshing properly.  My guess is the needle bearing under the large end of the mushroom gear is worn or bad enough to have some slack.  When you push the tractor, you have the wheels turning the differential and thus the bull gear, then the mushroom gear, then the reduction pinion.  When you are driving the tractor, you are turning everything starting with the input gear and it all happens in reverse...all the way to the wheels.  The slack may be gone under load thus no clicking...or it could be enough less that you do not hear it.

   Jack up the rear end of the tractor, start and put into 1st gear.  Now take a long screwdriver and use it like a stethoscope...with the handle on your ear and the blade at different points on the transmission.  Be careful here.  The bearing I think it is would be just in front of the right side axle.   

 

Are you thinking it's # 9 ? Gonna really hate having to crack this one open

 

 

Edited April 23, 2020 by Lagersolut

[stevasaurus 22,866]

Yes...that is the one that seems to go bad first...it is also the one that I've found going after that noise...after outer axle bearings.  Listen real good with the screwdriver 1st.  Let's see what you find first.  You can drive it and see if it gets louder, but sooner or later you will have to open it.  

[Lagersolut 677]

1 hour ago, stevasaurus said:

Yes...that is the one that seems to go bad first...it is also the one that I've found going after that noise...after outer axle bearings.  Listen real good with the screwdriver 1st.  Let's see what you find first.  You can drive it and see if it gets louder, but sooner or later you will have to open it.  

 

I'll get it jacked up this evening - this might be where that 1 1/8 inch axle 8 pinion trans goes from the C 101 to the 416 . 1st one you help me rebuild about  7 years ago .

[Lagersolut 677]

5 hours ago, stevasaurus said:

Yes...that is the one that seems to go bad first...it is also the one that I've found going after that noise...after outer axle bearings.  Listen real good with the screwdriver 1st.  Let's see what you find first.  You can drive it and see if it gets louder, but sooner or later you will have to open it.  

 

I put it up on jack stands and did it right . Long story short it needs to be opened up - on the stands without doing the balancing act it's fairly loud . I just did that '82 no name trans  and I was looking at pictures trying to get an idea and wrap my brain around what you posted . If those mushroom bearings are out it's jumping teeth probably here ( this is from the last transmission not the 416 ) ?

 

[stevasaurus 22,866]

Yes, or it could be with the bull gear on the differential.  Were you able to kind of isolate the noise with the screwdriver??  Regardless, time to open it up...and look for a bad bearing.  

   I remember helping you, has it been 7 years??  

[Lagersolut 677]

4 hours ago, stevasaurus said:

Yes, or it could be with the bull gear on the differential.  Were you able to kind of isolate the noise with the screwdriver??  Regardless, time to open it up...and look for a bad bearing.  

   I remember helping you, has it been 7 years??  

 

No I really couldn't isolate it - to be honest didn't try that hard - after it was on the jack stands and I could be down at the trans without doing the balancing act on the small floor jack ....yep it's time to open it ...just picked this tractor up last fall and  know it sat for a long time , if it got dry above the oil line and lost a bearing after it started moving again it's no surprise .. ...bought this for my worker has a 48" deck ....not gonna screw around ...picking up a kit off the vendor page doing the entire transmission calling it a day ....

 

Yea it's been 7 years since we did the trans on the C in my AV . ...you helped with the '82 no name earlier this year now this 416 8 will be the 3rd transmission ....hoping it's just a bearing and done . 

 

 

Edited April 24, 2020 by Lagersolut

[Lagersolut 677]

Got it open this morning , none of the bearings were out to the point needles were laying in the bottom of the case - from what I could tell what was causing the chatter the input shaft bearing had a lot of play up down side to side  ( was leaking a little ) other that that really didn't find much wrong in this one @stevasaurus

 

Other than that everything looked good .....the parts list on this unit has it listed as a 4 pinion with 1" axles - this tractor has 8 pinion 1 1/8 " axles

[stevasaurus 22,866]

Excellent, did you try turning the input shaft after you had the top off??   You may have found the problem.  The input shaft on the 3 piece RJ transmissions has 2 bearings and if one was a little off seat would cause that clicking also.  Yours, being worn, might be the answer.    Trans looks to be in great shape.

 

 

[stevasaurus 22,866]

The 8 speed transmission with 8 pinions and 1 1/8" axles is the correct transmission for your horse.  The 310-8 has the 4 pinion with 1" axes.  #110996 is yours.  The parts list is a little confusing, but look at the whole thing when they show different horses.  Actually, the trans listing in this manual is wrong.  The #110996 is the 8 pinion 1 1/8" axles...the #110995 is the 4 pinion with 1" axles.

 

 

[Lagersolut 677]

9 minutes ago, stevasaurus said:

Excellent, did you try turning the input shaft after you had the top off??   You may have found the problem.  The input shaft on the 3 piece RJ transmissions has 2 bearings and if one was a little off seat would cause that clicking also.  Yours, being worn, might be the answer.    Trans looks to be in great shape.

 

Yep - turning the input shaft didn’t produce much noise ...turning the axles though you can hear it chattering and slapping in there ... everything else was tight ... I’m gonna do a bearing kit on this one and call it a day ... yea this trans is in excellent shape 

 

Just curious Steve how did you get so knowledgeable on these transmissions ? 

 

Service tech Wheel horse dealer transmissions ? 

[stevasaurus 22,866]

I have been just lucky enough to, after I opened my 1st #5025 transmission for my 702 and rebuilt it, have people like Jake Kuhn & Lane Ralph call and ask if I wanted to rebuild a few transmissions for them.  I think Jake had 4...Lane had 4 and in between I managed to find a #5060 LS trans, a #5007 for John Burrly1, a #5091 for my brother and a #5085.  So that is the practical experience...but along with that, I have had many people call me and ask for help...plus all those that ask for help on this site.  As I help walk all these people through the process, I also get to learn more about what can go wrong in these remarkable transmissions.  Also, I have been lucky enough to have good people here on Red Square that know as much as I do and we have worked together to help and learn also.

   It is definitely a labor of love that has kept me young and busy sense I have retired.  I have really enjoyed what I do here.   

[Lagersolut 677]

4 hours ago, stevasaurus said:

I have been just lucky enough to, after I opened my 1st #5025 transmission for my 702 and rebuilt it, have people like Jake Kuhn & Lane Ralph call and ask if I wanted to rebuild a few transmissions for them.  I think Jake had 4...Lane had 4 and in between I managed to find a #5060 LS trans, a #5007 for John Burrly1, a #5091 for my brother and a #5085.  So that is the practical experience...but along with that, I have had many people call me and ask for help...plus all those that ask for help on this site.  As I help walk all these people through the process, I also get to learn more about what can go wrong in these remarkable transmissions.  Also, I have been lucky enough to have good people here on Red Square that know as much as I do and we have worked together to help and learn also.

   It is definitely a labor of love that has kept me young and busy sense I have retired.  I have really enjoyed what I do here.   

You are paying it forward and it is very appreciated - this place has been an integral part in keeping my tractors going . 

 

 

[Lagersolut 677]

This one is giving me a fit - got the new bearings in , everything moves smooth ....until I tighten up the front bolts on the case ..input shaft is binding up..

Edited May 3, 2020 by Lagersolut

[Lagersolut 677]

Is it possible the new gaskets in some cases are not thick enough and the case halves are pulling together too close - I've had this one apart 6 times checking , making sure bearings were flush , shafts and gears in right etc etc .....everything goes perfect ....until I snug the case bolts up

[stevasaurus 22,866]

Show me a couple of pictures of the gears sitting in the case.  Is the pinion on top of the splined shaft above or below the "C" clip.  It should be on top and even with the reduction gear on the cluster gear shaft.  

 

It is not the gaskets.

 

 

[Lagersolut 677]

2 hours ago, stevasaurus said:

Show me a couple of pictures of the gears sitting in the case.  Is the pinion on top of the splined shaft above or below the "C" clip.  It should be on top and even with the reduction gear on the cluster gear shaft.  

 

It is not the gaskets.

 

 

 

 

 

Okay here we go , I  was following your you tube as I was putting this together - this ones baffling me because it binds up and gets tight on that last small fraction of distance on tight down - I took everything else out but the input shaft and gears and it did the same thing - managed to break the thrust washer ( ordered one  ) also today while fiddling with it found another issue - crack on the spline gear - it also has little chips in it I couldn't quite figure out - the crack extends back a the tooth it's under . ( ordered one at A to Z  )

[stevasaurus 22,866]

I think you may have found your clicking.    I'm sill not understanding the binding.  Be watching when you get the parts.  

[Lagersolut 677]

46 minutes ago, stevasaurus said:

I think you may have found your clicking.    I'm sill not understanding the binding.  Be watching when you get the parts.  

 

46 minutes ago, stevasaurus said:

 

 

I'm not understanding it either - even after I tap the cases together with a rubber mallet everything moves freely - tighten up a bolt and the input shaft bottoms out and gets tight - I have a tripod for my Iphone after the parts come,  if this is still an issue I'll make a video and post it because this is really bugging me .....I'm missing something here and even with the assembly videos and threads I'm not finding it .          

[stevasaurus 22,866]

I just went back over my videos along with looking at your transmission.  I don't really see anything that stands out.  Were the 2 gears (the reduction gear and the pinion gear) on top of the cluster gear and splined shafts even to the touch???  If yes, I would take an arbor and give the bearing for the splined shaft in the left side case a tap to give it a touch more head space.  The bearing for the brake shaft (left side case) should be flush with the outside of the case.  Give that one a tap also.  Those adjustments should do it for you.