Little Diesel engine in a generator NO START

[Pullstart 62,784]

@Achto

 

Hey y’all... here’s what I get with a good strong battery trying to start this 78 hour generator.  Take a watch and tell me what you think...

 

 

[Pullstart 62,784]

Please keep in mind, I have no idea the history of this machine.  It has 78 hours on the ticker and it was headed to the junk pile if I had not snatched it up.  I’ve got nothing into this and am all ears to play around with it!

[ebinmaine 67,266]

 

[bc.gold 3,403]

Probably air in the fuel system, first bleed the injector pump then do the injector.

 

 

Edited April 16, 2020 by bcgold

[Achto 27,502]

2 hours ago, pullstart said:

Take a watch and tell me what you think..

 

Like bcgold said bleed the fuel system out good.

 

Is the glow system working? Put a multi meter on the battery while it is going through it's glow cycle to see if the voltage drops indicating that there is a draw. My Hatz engine does not have glow plugs or an intake heater but some engines, like a Kubota for example will not start without them first time for the day. Not even if it's 110 degrees out side.

 

Worse comes to worse, pull the air filter cover off. While it's cranking and only while it's cranking giv'er a shot of "sniffin' salts". A shot of starting fluid should wake it up and maybe run long enough to get it going.

[Tractorhead 9,064]

17 hours ago, Achto said:

 

Like bcgold said bleed the fuel system out good.

 

Is the glow system working? Put a multi meter on the battery while it is going through it's glow cycle to see if the voltage drops indicating that there is a draw. My Hatz engine does not have glow plugs or an intake heater but some engines, like a Kubota for example will not start without them first time for the day. Not even if it's 110 degrees out side.

 

Worse comes to worse, pull the air filter cover off. While it's cranking and only while it's cranking giv'er a shot of "sniffin' salts". A shot of starting fluid should wake it up and maybe run long enough to get it going.

 

I try it sometimes on Older Dieselengines ( mostly Mercedes antechamber with glowplugs) the won’t work after complete bleeding, 

instead of using starting fluid, remove the Airfilter and give it a warm breeze with a Heat gun to fire up.

 

Not directly contact, but about 5 cm distance while cranking.

As long as the funding begin is allready set and the Injektion system work and the compression is not too worse,

i allway‘s able to fire them up with this.

If i‘m roadside helper, i use a blowtorch instead.

On dieselengines i prevent pure gas or starterfluid, to prevent a connecting rod break.

 

 

[Pullstart 62,784]

I will try to bleed the fuel system, then heat the engine up as a whole with the torpedo heater.  Will report back some time soon!

[Pullstart 62,784]

I haven’t spent a ton of time on this, but though it sounds like it’s got a ton of compression and feels like it if you pull the recoil too... there’s no fire even with some spray in it’s throat... not even a sputter.

[Tractorhead 9,064]

Huh, not even a putt with start spray, that sounded at a continouse decompression.

i see several solutions for that.

have you measured allready the compression ?

 

Some dieselengins have a decompression lever for an easier start, maybe this „hung“

Seems your’s have an automatic decompression will be initiated by Throttle or choke and firstly run at startspeed.

any info on the Engine itself?

 

Oil fill and oilviscosity can also be an issue, auto decompression coupled on some smallengines with oilpressure ( hydraulic system)

if it has an Oilfilter, maybe that is too clogged, so autodecomp can not Work right, engine never starts.

 

Open the valvecap and take a look, if both valves are working while cranking.

 

as i seen on your first movie, the exhause seems to spit blue clouds, 

also the injection start could be wrong, but than it must with starterfluid fireing right up..

 

i‘m still on the decompressor site to search, for troubles making it non starting.

 

 

 

 

[bc.gold 3,403]

2 hours ago, pullstart said:

I haven’t spent a ton of time on this, but though it sounds like it’s got a ton of compression and feels like it if you pull the recoil too... there’s no fire even with some spray in it’s throat... not even a sputter.

 

Have you bled the air out, start again with the injector pump. you need to see diesel coming from the bleeder and it has to free of bubbles.

 

Now that the injector pump is fully primed and free of air, do the injector again.

 

Some diesel are a bear to bleed out, be patient and keep that either can on he shelf.

 

 

Edited April 20, 2020 by bcgold

[r356c 375]

It is a Chinese knockoff of a Yanmar air cooled diesel engine.

The manuals say it should go 3000 hours between rebuilds, so it has plenty of life left,

 

There does not seem to be any corrosion to speak of on the external metal parts, so I will assume the cylinder bore and rings are in decent shape.

 

All that is left is fuel delivery. I would drain the tank, clean the finger filter in the tank, put in fresh diesel fuel, check for good gravity fuel flow from the disconnected low pressure fuel line and if that all checked out and still no start, pull and clean the fuel injector.

 

My engines all had a yellow bolt fitting into the valve cover to be able to add a few drops of kerosene or cooking oil for cold weather starts.

 

I had better luck with the pull cord rather than electric start for starting a sleepy engine. There should be a decompression lever near the exhaust valve for pull starting.

Edited April 20, 2020 by r356c
combustion chamber to valve cover

[bc.gold 3,403]

If your absolutely sure all the air has been bled out and there's fuel coming from under the loosened injector nut and the engine still will not start.

 

Remove the injector, reposition it in such a way that you can reconnect the fuel line, keep your hands etc from under the nozzle from where the fuel is sprayed out. The fuel comes out at a very high pressure, enough to penetrate your skin.

 

Crank the engine over keeping an eye on the nozzle, the fuel should come out in a spray pattern, if your not seeing a spray of fuel them the nozzle is probably clogged with dirt. Unfortunately the only option you have is to replace the injector.

 

Mechanical injectors are pretty basic, the nozzle has some very small holes for the fuel to exit into the cylinder, a needle valve very similar to the one you see on a carburetor float.

 

The injector needle valve is kept in a normally closed position by spring pressure, the high pressure fuel delivered from the pump has enough pressure to lift the needle which in turn sprays fuel into the cylinder.

 

To little or to much spring pressure as you can imagine would either allow fuel early or much to late in the compression stroke. Internal spring tension is adjusted by removing or adding shims.

 

With a pop off tester you can check the pop off pressure at which pressure the fuel is released, check for proper spray pattern and if the nozzle leaks.

 

Fortunately the Chinese clone injector is inexpensive to replace.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 20, 2020 by bcgold

[bc.gold 3,403]

15 minutes ago, r356c said:

It is a Chinese knockoff of a Yanmar air cooled diesel engine.

The manuals say it should go 3000 hours between rebuilds, so it has plenty of life left,

 

There does not seem to be any corrosion to speak of on the external metal parts, so I will assume the cylinder bore and rings are in decent shape.

 

All that is left is fuel delivery. I would drain the tank, clean the finger filter in the tank, put in fresh diesel fuel, check for good gravity fuel flow from the disconnected low pressure fuel line and if that all checked out and still no start, pull and clean the fuel injector.

 

My engines all had a yellow bolt fitting into the combustion chamber to be able to add a few drops of kerosene or cooking oil for cold weather starts.

 

I had better luck with the pull cord rather than electric start for starting a sleepy engine. There should be a decompression lever near the exhaust valve for pull starting.

 

My Lister has these fuel cups to raise the compression.

 

[Pullstart 62,784]

Thank you everyone, I’ll get back to you on that!  Kevin

[wh500special 2,160]

Pullstart, do you ever sleep?  It seems like you have a constant litany of projects moving forward.

 

Impressive.

 

I think these engines self-bleed.  I bought a bare engine like this from a retailer that was going out of business several years ago and it was completely dry inside.  No oil, no fuel.  All I had to do was fill it up and it took care of the rest on its own.  I was worried about bleeding it, but it wasn't necessary.

 

Mine was recoil start only, so I don't know what they sound like when cranking on an electric starter but when the recoil was slowly advanced on the compression stroke at some point you'd hear the injector squeak when it fired the fuel into the cylinder.  I can't remember the exact sequence I used to start it, but I think I would roll it through a compression stroke slowly until I heard the squeak, then let the rope back in and give it a pull to start it (starting the fast pull on the power stroke let me build up some momentum to carry it through the next compression stroke). 

 

At least, that's what I remember but that was 10+ years ago.  I don't know if the videos will still work in this thread, but maybe.

 

My point is, roll it through a compression stroke slowly and see if you hear that squeak.  If not, you're not getting fuel.

 

Compression is so high on these things when pulling with the rope starter you have to use the decompression lever on top the valve cover or you probably won't be able to roll it over with any speed.  If you CAN roll it over without manually engaging the decompression lever I'd think it could be suspect.  I think all it does is hold the exhaust valve open a bit when engaged and it can probably be disabled by pulling the valve cover off.  That would render it electric start only, but in anything less than about 60 degrees you won't be able to rope start this anyway.

 

Last suggestion...look for evidence of fuel leaks anywhere along the path from the pump to the injector.  If it's leaking fuel, it's possibly not developing enough fuel pressure to overcome the compression.

 

I no longer own the tractor I had which was equipped with one of these.  No idea how its holding up or if it has grenaded itself already.  I was happy with it when I had it as a toy.  I will say though, even though these are "clones" of the Yanmar that the fit and finish and probable component quality isn't the same.  I also have a Yanmar L100 and if you put these side by side you can see the Yanmar is built with greater attention to detail.  So while it ought to last > 78 hours, I'm not sure I'd forecast any kind of lifespan for them based on what the Yanmar does.

 

They very well might be "50-hour engines."  Part of the certification required by EPA to sell any engine in the US is a statement defining how long the engine will be emissions compliant.  50-hours is a pretty common rating, even on a lot of much lauded products .  That doesn't mean it dies at 50 hours, but it means the manufacturer has stated that it's possible the engine will drift enough from initial specifications that any operation beyond the rating period might be non-compliant with respect to emissions.

 

Steve

Edited April 20, 2020 by wh500special

[Pullstart 62,784]

@wh500special Steve, thanks for your input on the Diesel engine!  If not used as is, I’d love to repower a Horse with it!

 

as far as your inquiry about sleep...  That’s when my best tractor ideas come to my mind most the time!  In all honesty, my Grandfather was the main staple father figure in my life.  He worked a job into his 90’s and always had time for family matters too.  I’d like to say I model my work mentality after him, but I’m also a self employed seasonal / stay at home homeschool dad, so I have the flexibility to make my own hours, so long my girls are taken care of.  This guy’s a lucky man!

[Tractorhead 9,064]

The easiest way to see if the injector works is to remove it,

reconnect it in any other degree in a bottle or a Bowl like in the video and crank the engine.

 

but as allready suggested, please wear urgently eyeprotection and take care it blows in opposite direction to yourself.

So you can easily check the whole fuelsystem, if it delivers and if the nozzle only spray‘s.

 

The pressure on the injector is something between 180 - 250Bar pressure and on common rail systems up to few thousand Bar‘s pressure.

 

As allready before mentioned, that cuts you skin and flesh easily.

Even a contamination is really Danger in your blood.

so please take care of yourself while doing this, get out of the danger zone.

the danger zone is up to 20cm distance. 

 

if you need a longer highpressure Fuelline mostly brakelines can be used, they are resist to that pressure.

 

i checked mine the same Way as @bcgold shows in the Video.

 

 

But i did another check with all injectors connected, to see if the Highpressurepump works as it should

and if its presure is enough to let the nozzles work correct, but i have no Pict from that.

 

I put under each injector a glass, to see if they work as expected after reworking them.

and how many fuel they injected.

maybe not the Cleanest Testscenario, but the effectivest, than i cranked the engine 4 times to see what happens.

 

after that test i could be sure the whole fuelsystem works as required and i can put them back in the Head.

I learned the hard way, that Eye protection is highly recommended by doing tests with the Diesel Fuelsystem.

i don‘t loosing my eyesight, but even the neboulus that occurs not funny in the eyes.

 

 

 

 

 

[bc.gold 3,403]

A mechanics stethoscope or a stick to your ear, placed onto the injector while turning the engine over preferably on the pull start you will be able to hear the injector as it pops off.

[Tractorhead 9,064]

20 minutes ago, bcgold said:

A mechanics stethoscope or a stick to your ear, placed onto the injector while turning the engine over preferably on the pull start you will be able to hear the injector as it pops off.

 

That‘s right, you can hear if it reacts, but you can’t hear if the nozzle only spray‘s or if it dribbs or injects a beam.

That could be just seen.

 

another issue can happen, if a defect nozzle injects only a beam instead of just a fine spray,

it can whash out the piston head over the time, like a extrem small drilled hole in piston top.

 

That also can cause reduced compression.

 

 

[Cvans 1,009]

Your getting a lot of good advice. Make sure you go real easy with the starting fluid. As stated make darn sure your glow plugs are actually heating. If you have an extra amp meter laying around you can put it in line with the glow plug and see what your drawing. or pull the glow plug out and ground the body to the engine and run your start cycle. That glow plug should get hot in a hurry. If it doesn't that's probably your problem. I wouldn't leave the glow plug energized very long if it's heating up. 

Good luck and keep us informed.

Edited April 20, 2020 by Cvans

[bc.gold 3,403]

In a nut shell, the reason why the clones are hard start after being laid up.

 

 

[bc.gold 3,403]

I once bought an old Michigan loader that sat 20 years, previous own used a short peice of Big-O for the fuel cap and water found its way into the fuel system.

 

The hired hand kept cranking the engine over until the starter eventually quit and there she sat, I had the starter rebuilt, hung a five gallon of fuel onto the machine aired up the tires then purchased a $35.00 temporary operation permit then drove the loader home.

 

After using the loader for six months one of the injectors started acting up, found an old Adams grader with the same Detroit diesel as a donor. Installed the replacement injectors and had a run away engine.

 

Fortunately I had read the service manual beforehand and knew what to do if a run away engine should occur.

 

Speaking of run away diesels, if your engine starts using lots of lubricating oil and the engine now decides to run on crankcase oil that is passing the piston rings, there's no way to shut the engine down other than starving it for air.

 

Also a very worn out turbo leaking oil into the intake side of the engine can often cause an engine to run away.

 

 

 

[bc.gold 3,403]

Bump

[Pullstart 62,784]

Sorry @bcgold this hasn’t seen any shop time.  I knew there had been some replies and have neglected to look, so I knew where I left off.  Great video you shared, I’ll be sure to check that first!  

[wh500special 2,160]

Strange timing on this thread being resurrected…I literally just got off the phone with an engineer for one of the major air cooled diesel manufacturers and he reported that their engines have a mean time between failure of 6500 hours under load.  That’s the 7 hp version but i imagine the 10 will be analogous. 
 

He said the Yanmar clones are a complete crapshoot but on average make it about 200 hours before they lock up or grenade. They’ve tested plenty of them apparently. 

Your mileage -or hours- may vary. 
 

Steve