701 push button starter switch failed

[Lane Ranger 10,945]

I tried starting my 1961 Wheel Horse 701 today and no go!  Put battery charger on for a while but then remembered I had a newer battery.  
 

Got the test light out and looked at all my wire connections .  All good.   So I started checking closer the regulator and my push button starter switch.  Regulator was ok but a loose bolt on the generator.

 

Tried everything again still no go  - no power to generator when using push button switch with key switch turned on.  Key switch checked and all good.

 

 

so I took out the push button switch after checking that one side had no power to my test light when pushed. So I removed the push button switch and decided to take it apart to look inside.  Never looked at one before inside and wondered what it might look like.

 

Here are the pictures.

 

So looks like something burned inside the push button switch!   I ordered a new Cole Hersee switch to replace my cheap one. 

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 11,032]

You realize the switch just provides a ground for the solenoid?

Have never seen a replacement 3-terminal solenoid with the shunt for the coil.

A 4-terminal solenoid with + and - terminals for the coil will work.

 

Garry

[bc.gold 3,403]

How many amps is your push button switch rated for, to extend the life use a horn relay good for 30 amps wired into the circuit.

 

[953 nut 55,065]

8 hours ago, Lane Ranger said:

So looks like something burned inside the push button switch!

Ya, I don't work as well as I once did either,  Push my buttons and I may or may not start!          Guess one of my connections is burnt up inside    

[bottjernat1 2,190]

Maybe this would work for those unwanted riders. LOL

[rmaynard 15,427]

Have you tried going directly to the solenoid, and jumper to ground eliminating the switch? As Garry said, the push button switch only completes the path to ground for the starter solenoid. Extremely rare that it should fail.

 

Edited April 14, 2020 by rmaynard

[bottjernat1 2,190]

Doesnt the 701 have this style push button? https://www.steinertractor.com/MFS140?crawlparam wouldn't this tractor one work? or is the whole to small?

[Lane Ranger 10,945]

Ok guys  thanks for all the suggestions and information on the 701 wiring.

 

I finally got back to this project yesterday and today.

 

I have a new Cole Hersee push button switch and a new solenoid.

 

Due to my steel/chrome plated dash I can not use a two prong switch (at least I have not found one that  has about 5/8 inches of threads to go thru the dash plate thickness.

 

So the switch which has been in mine is a four  prong switch.  Been in there for ten or more years and three different owners.

 

Photo of the key switch is attached.   I hook up BAT prong on the key switch to the ammeter with a short wire like in the 701 diagram.

 

I hook up the Positive Coil wire to the IGN on the four prong switch.

When testing to test light with key switched to IGN  I have power to POS Coil side.  Positive on Both Sides on Ammeter.   Light Switch Works -hooked to Regulator ACC Post.

 

Test light also shows POS on Solenoid Top Post.

 

However, when I push the Push Button Switch to turn the starter No Go.

 

I tested continuity with Neg Side of Battery and ground wire on Push Button and I have continuity.

 

I checked negative site of battery to center post on solenoid and I have continuity.

 

I ran wire from positive side on battery to center post on solenoid and the solenoid clicks in place.

 

However, I have no grounding occurring when I push the Push Button Switch.

 

 

 

So I think the solenoid may not be correct.   It is already grounded and that means the push button switch does not engage ground.

 

 

What is a correct solenoid to use on the 701 that is ungrounded until engaged with the push button switch.

 

 

 

[pfrederi 17,663]

Guess it is this type used on snowplows

Western 25634

 

[pfrederi 17,663]

Foe push button  one of these???

 

 

[WHX?? 48,765]

Or a four post solenoid and jumper the batt  post to one of the small posts and the other small post to switch ground? Which must be like an original except the sol. coil is internally connected to B+ .

The one Paul showed would work for certain ...note the apply ground to center terminal to activate. 

 

Or I just come get the whole shebang!  

[pfrederi 17,663]

Most 4 terminal solenoids have an I terminal that is used to bypass ballast resisters while starting.  Do not think they will work here.

[Lane Ranger 10,945]

27 minutes ago, WHX24 said:

Or a four post solenoid and jumper the batt  post to one of the small posts and the other small post to switch ground? Which must be like an original except the sol. coil is internally connected to B+ .

The one Paul showed would work for certain ...note the apply ground to center terminal to activate. 

 

Or I just come get the whole shebang!  

 

 

A couple more days of messing with this and you may have the opportunity Jim!

 

[WHX?? 48,765]

Dibs ... now that Dan @Achto has TWO 701s i gotta keep up with the joneses ...Shall I go start the truck and get hooked up??? 

Edited April 28, 2020 by WHX24

[953 nut 55,065]

Lane,   I'm going to take guess here,                 At some point in the past six decades someone rewired it and didn't use the original style  solenoid because they were no longer available.  If you jump from big post to big post on the solenoid does the starter turn over? From what I am able to glean from your trouble shooting procedure I am inclined to think you have a bad battery cable, passes enough current to show voltage on a meter but not enough to actuate the starter. 

 

[pfrederi 17,663]

Read back through this   Why did you replace the solenoid you talked about switches but I didn't see solenoid.  Do you have the old one? Test it?? Richard may be on to something.

Edited April 28, 2020 by pfrederi

[Achto 27,502]

@Lane Ranger Looking at the wire diagram I think that it is wrong, or at least it won't work with the solenoid that you have. I have never seen a solenoid wired the way it is on the diagram.

Here is the fix - Run a hot "+" wire to one side of the start button, run a wire from the other side of the start button to the small post on the solenoid. The body of the solenoid will serve as your ground for the coil in the solenoid. Connect a large "10ga at least" wire from the battery to one of the large terminals on the solenoid. Connect a large wire from the other large term on the solenoid to the starter gen "+" terminal.

 

Your start system should work with the above set up.

[WHX?? 48,765]

Good advice Dan ... how is your wired? Very possible with all the POs that one may have been altered. Probably don't  know and don't care till you resto it right?

[Achto 27,502]

1 minute ago, WHX24 said:

how is your wired?

 

Kickin' back for the night. I'll investigate tomorrow & get you an answer.

[WHX?? 48,765]

Kick back dude... for those of you interested Dan and I came across a nice 701 at a show which we procured at a real decent price  BUT it was quite obvious it was repainted ...maybe more than once. You'd like it Lane..... all pretty much everything there for full blown resto ... again prime candidate for Dan to work his magic on. I'll help wet sand on that bad boy any day Dan!

Edited April 29, 2020 by WHX24
My Bad No pic

[WHX?? 48,765]

Little  here but I know you well enough Lane that you wouldn't enjoy! You bring up a 701 I get this itch that needs  to be scratched!  Add insult to injury you gotta flash an HY!!!!

Edited April 29, 2020 by WHX24

[Lane Ranger 10,945]

The HY unit is one of my favorite buys!  November 17 on a Saturday in Frankfort, Indiana!  Big Farm equipment  auction.  I am there at 7 am parked third vehicle from gravel  roadway in front of farm.   I survey layout!  Two trailers with PA’s s and auctioneers running the selling!  Auction starts at nine am!  About thirty degrees frost everywhere! 

 

I look at a Wheel Horse and parts near a farm trailer  - A 753 Whe  Ed l Horse with a replacement motor- not sure now what but I am not interested!  I had the Clay Brooks original itch by that time!

 

anyway I survey the yard with piles of things on two acres!  I then see a Hein Werner pump and several hoses.  A hydraulic cylinder , etc.  so I camp out near there.  This had to come off the 753 as only tractor there and when motor was changed they could not keep it on the tractor.

 

well around one o’clock the auction trailer gets to area near the HY unit.  Next thing I know the second trailer pills up and it is pulled right in front of the other trailer.  One auctioneer announced that they were going to sell at same time but split area right where I was standing!  

 

ok bidding starts takes abou  Th fifteen minutes to get to HY unit.  Three bidders start about $25.  I bid third $50.   Next thing I know it’s $75 .  Well I bid $84 after another guy bid $80 .  I win the bid!  Next thing I know guy working for auction I. Second auction trailer starts to hold up HY bracket to mount on tower and belt guard cover.  I holler at him , Hey those go with the HY unit I just bought for $85!    He gives me a frozen look and says ok! 
 

So I got a complete bolt up HY set about 2012 which I put on the 701!
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[WHX?? 48,765]

Nice Lane.. love to hear stories like that 

[953 nut 55,065]

11 hours ago, Achto said:

Looking at the wire diagram I think that it is wrong, or at least it won't work with the solenoid that you have. I have never seen a solenoid wired the way it is on the diagram.

That was the way the wiring was done on the 550, 551 and 701. Not a great idea but that was what they did.

[Achto 27,502]

12 minutes ago, 953 nut said:

That was the way the wiring was done on the 550, 551 and 701

 

This must have involved a special solenoid. I'm not familiar with any newer solenoid coil functioning that way.