Do bad balance gears rattle?

[squonk 41,738]

C-160 with 986 hrs. It developed a rattle somewhere last fall. First time out mowing today and the rattle is driving me nuts. I put my stethoscope in the spot between the cylinder and valve spring area, kind of near the governor and I can hear the rattle pretty good. Somewhere in the engine. I have thought of pulling the plug out and rocking the flywheel back and forth to see if I hear anything. Really can't hear it at idle but at half staff on up I can hear it. I was hoping to make it to 1000 hrs. I have another bullet on the shelf to put in it. Thoughts? 

[WHX?? 49,581]

Put the stethoscope between yer cheeks andsee what yer brain tells you. Then stick yer head up there to see if you have a bad bearing. Then pull the motor apart, yank the balance gears and fling the gears at the neighbors pesky cat.

For a lousy 14 hours why risk ventilating a block? 

[pfrederi 18,072]

Every one seems to say toss the balance gears when you overhaul.  i have done it twice now K321 and K341...but there is a noticeable vibration in the steering wheel (more like a buzzing) than in any of the other units that have engines like it that still have their balance gears....  some how i do not think Kohler spent the money to put them in there for no reason....

Edited April 7, 2020 by pfrederi

[Stepney 2,332]

I'll take a slight vibration over a ventilated block..

Just try mowing with 1940's Wisconsin power!
A kohler missing half it's flywheel may still be smoother..

Kohler K's do have a bit of 'knocking' from camshaft end play when they wear. But regardless I'd tear it down and look it over real good.

Be a shame to kill a 16hp over a bearing..

[The Tuul Crib 7,338]

The last three motors I had a part a pull the balance gears out and pitched em!

not much of a noticeable difference on the vibration but hey after all it's the power of Kohler. I like the feel of the motor when it's running when I'm sitting on the tractor and the peace of mind knowing I don't have the balance gears in place! 

[953 nut 56,349]

22 minutes ago, WHX24 said:

fling the gears at the neighbors pesky cat

What did the cat ever do to you?                         

1 hour ago, squonk said:

Really can't hear it at idle but at half staff on up I can hear it. I was hoping to make it to 1000 hrs. I have another bullet on the shelf to put in it. Thoughts?

Well , guess you could let it idle for 14 hours and then rebuild it.    

Kohler did make a rebuild kit with new bearings for the balance gears. I guess you could try to find one of the kits or source some bearings that will fit. The older Kohlers didn't have any balance gears and would run forever so I'm not too sure they were needed.  Your engine,   your decision, just don't throw them at the cat!     

[ebinmaine 69,213]

1 hour ago, WHX24 said:

fling the gears at the...pesky... neighbors

 

[JAinVA 4,629]

As I understand it balance gears were an option from Kohler.Some users didn't spec them and some did.I have K blocks on the bench that were never drilled for the balance gear shafts.

[briankd 817]

when i done my k 301 i threw em out and i don't really notice the diff they a bit pricey to put back in 

[bds1984 1,457]

I tossed the balance gears in my C165 when I went through it nearly six years ago and haven't looked back.  Now granted I only have put 55 hours on it since then but at speeds above 2000 RPM, there isn't any noticeable vibrations but at an idle she'll shake like a nervous Boss 429 at the strip waiting by the tree lights.  But I will say there aren't any abnormal noises coming from her and I just tilled up a garden plot with nary a sweat on her part!  As far as the neighbor's cat, I welcome them as they help keep critters out of my gardens and give my two indoor cats someone else to chirp at!  

[bds1984 1,457]

2 hours ago, WHX24 said:

Put the stethoscope between yer cheeks andsee what yer brain tells you. Then stick yer head up there to see if you have a bad bearing. Then pull the motor apart, yank the balance gears and fling the gears at the neighbors pesky cat.

For a lousy 14 hours why risk ventilating a block? 

 

This is probably what Kohler wanted to put in the service manual but some pesky editor omitted it.

[ZXT 2,401]

2 hours ago, Stepney said:

I'll take a slight vibration over a ventilated block..

 

 

The K341 in my CC1650 doesn't have balance gears, the K321 that I built for my C-120 doesn't appear to have ever had balance gears, and if I ever pull the K-341 apart on my C-160, assuming it still has them, it won't when it goes back together.

 

I've compared engines that had gears and ones that didn't side by side and honestly, I'm not sure I could tell the difference. Certainly not enough difference to risk having them shoot out the block!

[Stepney 2,332]

Likewise.

My 'good running' Wisconsin's and Teccys shake worse than a K without balance gears..

Spent a lot of time at the wheel of a 1968 Bolens.. what a bone shaker.

Simplicity, WH, and a select few years of IH Cub I have seen the balance gears. Never in a PowerKing, Speedex, etc.

[roadapples 6,983]

How much do you have to disassemble to get them out. And can you tell if you have them with it together?

[squonk 41,738]

Going to check a couple of things but like I said I have another engine that I got from @richmondred01 a few years ago sitting on a shelf. @elcamino/wheelhorse. did you ever get that Volvo clean after hauling all those parts? 

[pfrederi 18,072]

10 hours ago, roadapples said:

How much do you have to disassemble to get them out. And can you tell if you have them with it together?

  Best way is to look you spec number up on Kohler parts and see if they are listed. 

 

They are item 25 of 28 steps for disassembly  and #4 of 29 for reassembly in Kohler Service manual

[BOB ELLISON 2,981]

When I first got my c160 it had a rattle like your's. I did a post on it but I can't find the post .  I did pull the pan and the c clip that holds on the 

Balance gears was allowing the gear to vibrate. 

If I wouldn't have looked really close I would have missed it. When I pull the c-clip it was real sloppy like it expanded. I ordered new c clips for both gears and when I put them on the noise was gone. I have a post that I actually showed that part it was extremely hard to find. My advice is pull your pan check those clips. I was going to remove those gears but you have to pull the crank or as some suggested actually bust or shatter the gear that can't be pulled without pulling the crank.

I tried searching for that post it was back in 2016 and I had no luck whatsoever. I think I'll send a note to the moderators and ask how to find my old posts.

[BOB ELLISON 2,981]

@squonk I found the post.

 

[squonk 41,738]

Bob, mine doesn’t sound that bad. I am going to check timing, pull the plug and rock the crank and probably drain the oil and run a borescope camera down the oil tube. 

[elcamino/wheelhorse 9,358]

9 hours ago, squonk said:

. @elcamino/wheelhorse. did you ever get that Volvo clean after hauling all those parts? 

never got a spec of crud in Volvo hauling the stuff. I know how to pack junk in a vehicle. 

[squonk 41,738]

Here's a video. Pardon the fat finger. You can really hear it on the right side. The belt is not turning so that's not it. 

 

 

[squonk 41,738]

I think it's time. This motor was tired when I got it about 10 years ago. Pulled the head. Pardon the shaky phone but you can see the play in the piston to bore.

 

 

[ebinmaine 69,213]

Yeah buddy. That might be a bit loose.

[Marv 952]

Is it possible the rattle might be in the muffler? Maybe a broken internal baffle.

Marv

[pacer 3,174]

At 80+ years and fooling with small engines since I was 13 buying a Cushman scooter (for $40) I've developed a pretty good 'ear' for noises in them.

One of my 341's started this .... rattle?  a bit different from any before, Have read a lot of the stuff about the "grenade gears" - and not having had the engine for long, I decided I'd better ck it out. Good thing too, the gears were VERY loose/floppy. Having gone that far into the engine I decided to inspect everything else, and - good thing there too, I found the rod/crankshaft had about .003/.004 wear on the crank, dont think it was enough to make the rattle I was hearing but was definitely going to need attention soon. The bore was well within tolerance so after throwing the grenade gears at the cat, I also replaced the crank/rod and since piston was laying there in the bench I went ahead a threw rings at and worked over the valves. As another surprise on inspecting the 'guts' of the engine I found the plastic governor gear badly worn so was able to avoid a later disaster there tooo

 

So by chasing down the odd 'rattle' I probably saved much more serious trouble later with the rod/crank and governor. Oh and as another plus the "rattle' was gone and the thing ran normal, meaning I couldnt tell any difference in the "feel?" of it.

 

So, squonk, I would say - get inside that badboy and ck her out.