Kohler k series points

[AHS 1,439]

Ok, I have heard “set em at .020” by 98% of the guys... but a few have said .015”... .020” is too far. Ok, so the points gets its voltage sent to the coil which then turns it in fire? Am I correct? So my mind tells me that “ to the maximum”  .020... what am I missing here??🤔

[Daddy Don 905]

I set most of mine between 18 and 20. Depends on the engine. You do have wear on the points push rod and it can make some difference on the setting.   

[stevasaurus 22,706]

I've never heard .015, but like Don said...some of the older ones run better at .018.  My 702 and the 857 do run better at .018.  You just need to try and see how your engine reacts to the difference.  At .018, I touch the key and it is running...now my 876 runs great at .020.  

[stevasaurus 22,706]

One thing you need to know about Kohler "K" series...the point gap rules the timing.  
Get the proper point gap for your engine, and the timing is perfect also.  Do the static test for your points.  

[ebinmaine 67,266]

1 hour ago, AHS said:

So my mind tells me that “ to the maximum”  .020... what am I missing here

The size of the point gap determines the TIME the points are open. NOT the strength of the spark.

 

The longer or shorter it takes to open and close them determines where/when in the rotation of the crankshaft the plug gets fired.

 

[MikMacMike 479]

12 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

The size of the point gap determines the TIME the points are open. NOT the strength of the spark.

 

The longer or shorter it takes to open and close them determines where/when in the rotation of the crankshaft the plug gets fired.

 

The coil and capacitor are what make a strong spark right Ebinmain.....I actually wired up 2 capacitors on big red with the old coill I got with her.....Ive been studying the fuel injection systems though and will definately be building a ECU with fuel injection for the ol (((SHAKER))). Tork gains are impressive to say the least when you have power over the timing and amount of metered fuel. Hey all Im back quickly, Ive been working with brother on a lowered, tubbed, custom chopped pick me upper.....hate to say its a FOOOOORRRRDDD hahahahah and its coming along tooo, my brother gave me some time off that slave driver hahahahah, so Im just sitting here haven a couple of micro brew Lake Port Ice bars.....so wish I could share. 

[MikMacMike 479]

There are some great sites that help with building ECU's even with single cylinder shakers, really doesnt matter if its a shaker or not but the tech is definately a winner to say the least......

[AHS 1,439]

47 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

The size of the point gap determines the TIME the points are open. NOT the strength of the spark.

 

The longer or shorter it takes to open and close them determines where/when in the rotation of the crankshaft the plug gets fired.

 

Yes, exactly👍

[AHS 1,439]

27 minutes ago, MikMacMike said:

The coil and capacitor are what make a strong spark right Ebinmain.....I actually wired up 2 capacitors on big red with the old coill I got with her.....Ive been studying the fuel injection systems though and will definately be building a ECU with fuel injection for the ol (((SHAKER))). Tork gains are impressive to say the least when you have power over the timing and amount of metered fuel. Hey all Im back quickly, Ive been working with brother on a lowered, tubbed, custom chopped pick me upper.....hate to say its a FOOOOORRRRDDD hahahahah and its coming along tooo, my brother gave me some time off that slave driver hahahahah, so Im just sitting here haven a couple of micro brew Lake Port Ice bars.....so wish I could share. 

I would rather have a Chevy any day...... but.. it’s a 351, 302 or a 300 straight six...those are close to my heart! 

[MikMacMike 479]

1 minute ago, AHS said:

I would rather have a Chevy any day...... but.. it’s a 351, 302 or a 300 straight six...those are close to my heart! 

Yuppers totally agree......just like chevy, both small and big block.....350, yes a chevy 302(very rare!!!) and a 292 straight six in days past......I still have my straight six intake, its a aluminum 4bbl intake made by Clifford for the chevy straight liners heheheheh

[ebinmaine 67,266]

67-69 DZ302... Built for Z/28s only.

Rugged little buggers..

Rated 290 HP. Actual was "estimated" closer to 400...

 

One o my favorites... Never owned one. Rarely even seen one.

 

 

 

 

And the venerable 292.

I had a good one back about 16 or 18 years ago. 

Offenhauser aluminum intake. Tiny little Holley 4380 carb. 450cfm. Mechanical secondaries.

Great runner.

 

[MikMacMike 479]

oh yaaa thats a hi fiver for sure, they actually manufactured the SBC 302 for to compete in the race car sercut.....so to actually get yer hands on a origional up here anyways is pritbeer non exsistant. So what we used to do is destroke a SBC 400 with a ......dang i forget now that was years ago but I think a just over 3 inch stroke crank.....it gave us aprox 321 cu in but dang it buzzzed up there fast, thats how we cheated in clay track with alot of buuilds actually so we could compete with max cubic inch.and not get disqualified, hehehehehe

[AHS 1,439]

12 minutes ago, MikMacMike said:

Yuppers totally agree......just like chevy, both small and big block.....350, yes a chevy 302(very rare!!!) and a 292 straight six in days past......I still have my straight six intake, its a aluminum 4bbl intake made by Clifford for the chevy straight liners heheheheh

Yep, I have a 71 c10 with a sweet running and strong 250 ( only 112k on it!) and a 3 speed... that I’m rebuilding. Although it would be nice to get a 292😁👍

[MikMacMike 479]

8 minutes ago, AHS said:

Yep, I have a 71 c10 with a sweet running and strong 250 ( only 112k on it!) and a 3 speed... that I’m rebuilding. Although it would be nice to get a 292😁👍

There still around in the odd junk yard, but more so in the old out back farmers fields.....there stake trucks were more often with a 292 then most motors actually......they were low rpm tork monsters.....I used to drive a water truck and some of the hills in the back forty were very steep, a 350 SBC could never do what that 292 could cuz they needed rpm, the 292 as it got struggling at lower rpm's would just hold sted at about 1900 to 2000 rpm in 2nd while the 350 almost caughed a lung in 1st at the same rpm and over heated heheheheh, 292 was also overly restricted from factory, when it was opened up both on intake and exhaust with a weee bit of a compression increase could breath fire like a deisle and in my opinion match them for tork in there day on the farm.

[MikMacMike 479]

Just now, MikMacMike said:

There still around in the odd junk yard, but more so in the old out back farmers fields.....there stake trucks were more often with a 292 then most motors actually......they were low rpm tork monsters.....I used to drive a water truck and some of the hills in the back forty were very steep, a 350 SBC could never do what that 292 could cuz they needed rpm, the 292 as it got struggling at lower rpm's would just hold sted at about 1900 to 2000 rpm in 2nd while the 350 almost caughed a lung in 1st at the same rpm and over heated heheheheh, 292 was also overly restricted from factory, when it was opened up both on intake and exhaust with a weee bit of a compression increase could breath fire like a deisle and in my opinion match them for tork in there day on the farm.

But I will never slight the 250 either......we used to have a 25.....something i forget now....over bored that took snoopy, one of the top v8's on clay, that dam 250 put out easily over 300 horse, but more so and Im not sure how much and I love tork more then HP any day of the week, it had gobs of tork that won and actually beat the pants off the 360 cryco called snoopy........what a hell of a way to get yer ass spanked eh hahahahahahaha

[AHS 1,439]

6 minutes ago, MikMacMike said:

There still around in the odd junk yard, but more so in the old out back farmers fields.....there stake trucks were more often with a 292 then most motors actually......they were low rpm tork monsters.....I used to drive a water truck and some of the hills in the back forty were very steep, a 350 SBC could never do what that 292 could cuz they needed rpm, the 292 as it got struggling at lower rpm's would just hold sted at about 1900 to 2000 rpm in 2nd while the 350 almost caughed a lung in 1st at the same rpm and over heated heheheheh, 292 was also overly restricted from factory, when it was opened up both on intake and exhaust with a weee bit of a compression increase could breath fire like a deisle and in my opinion match them for tork in there day on the farm.

Your right! Torque is just a straight line, and higher than most. 

[tom2p 2,394]

43 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

67-69 DZ302... Built for Z/28s only.

Rugged little buggers..

Rated 290 HP. Actual was "estimated" closer to 400...

 

One o my favorites... Never owned one. Rarely even seen one.

 

 

 

 

And the venerable 292.

I had a good one back about 16 or 18 years ago. 

Offenhauser aluminum intake. Tiny little Holley 4380 carb. 450cfm. Mechanical secondaries.

Great runner.

 

music to my ears !

 

two of my favs

 

one friend has an original DZ 302 - and also has the factory chambered exhaust system  ... that he had chrome plated ... 

 

 

and I had a 68 chev 4x4 shortbed with a great running 292 .. but all stock - not like the warmed over 292 you had 

 

I did throw a chrome plated valve cover on it though ... lol ... can't be sure - but the chrome valve cover might have been from a 250 ?  
 

 

[MikMacMike 479]

where that tork comes in is what somewhat dictates HP.......it can get there fast or slow and thats all HP is, The mechanical advantage with tork or measurement is where we always start with every build and like I always say to these guys that cough out exuberant hp figures ......hey hp is only a timed mathimatical figure of tork. play too much with it and youll loose every time with a given strenth of the material your supplied with, example cast, forged, billit you name it, yes there are motors that produce gobs of hp at 20, ooo rpm but put that against a fire breathing tork monster and it always looses, well mostly anyways depending on the aplication.....it really is relitive ....ok gotta run my dinner might not be there and Ill loose all my tork if i dont eat hahahahahah

Take care bro.

[AHS 1,439]

But I’ve got some tricks up my sleeve!! I love torque too. Yep, Chevy restricted them a bit too much. Cam, head work, carb and headers.

[MikMacMike 479]

4 minutes ago, tom2p said:

music to my ears !

 

two of my favs

 

one friend has an original DZ 302 - and also has the factory chambered exhaust system  ... that he had chrome plated ... 

 

 

and I had a 68 chev 4x4 shortbed with a great running 292 .. but all stock - not like the warmed over 292 you had 

 

I did throw a chrome plated valve cover on it though ... lol ... can't be sure - but the chrome valve cover might have been from a 250 ?  
 

 

LOL, you sure about that? completely different actually, one bolted from center of cover while the other bolted from the flange, hmmm except the hump back 250 before they were discontinued.....i honestly forget how there bolt patern was.....shitty head anyways, they had the .....oh crap I forget now either the intake or exhaust manifold casted to the head and it sucked, I used to toss them and replace with a early head with larger valves, that clifford intake and 2 peice headers, never mind what cam we matched her with, all depended on what our goal was, rev high or bull tree pullin stump tork, problem with them reving high was the harmonics.....went home broke a few times after splitting a crank lol......I think what I loved about the idea of a stove bolt drowning a v8 was obviousely its an out match motor, because yes cubic inches will always walk the walk normally ....alais it is just a compressor at its heart. I gotta eat or Im going to drop.....chat soon bretherin

[953 nut 55,065]

Gapping the ignition points at .020 has always been the standard answer to how points should be set. That probably will get you into the ballpark where the engine will run, but with a bit of additional effort you can improve the engine’s power and performance.

The Kohler engine manual in the Red Square files section covers two methods for setting the ignition timing, Static Timing and using a Timing Light. This manual is a relatively new manual and it overlooks the fact that many of our engines were built prior to the ACR (automatic compression release) camshaft.

Earlier engines (mostly 1965 and earlier) had a Spark Advance camshaft that can not be timed using Static timing. At rest (and very low RPMs) the timing is retarded to fire slightly after TDC. The timing mark (SP) on your flywheel is at twenty degrees before top dead center but at rest the points on these engines break about ten degrees after top dead center. The only reliable way to check or set the timing on these engines is with a timing light.

There are a couple ways to determine what camshaft you have. Presuming the camshaft in your engine is the one it was born with the data plate on the engine has a suffix that can tell you what camshaft was used. The table below will tell you the suffix applicable to your engine. The other way to determine what camshaft you have is to remove the cam gear cover and take a look. If you see a mechanism attached to the cam gear it is the ACR cam.

 

 

The following engines have the spark advance camshaft;

K-141, Suffix prior to “C”

K-161, Suffix prior to “J”

K-181, Suffix prior to “D”

K-241, Suffix prior to “D”

 

For those who are interested in more details of the why and how of static timing; read on!

With a battery ignition system, the ignition points are closed the majority of the time. With the points closed and the ignition switch ON the primary windings of the ignition coil have current flowing through them and are developing a magnetic field in the iron core of the ignition coil. The moment the ignition points open the magnetic field collapses and induces a momentary high voltage pulse in the secondary windings of the coil which goes through the spark plug wire and arcs across the gap of the spark plug. If this occurs in the presence of a compressed fuel/air mixture of the proper ratio an explosion will occur within the cylinder. If this explosion occurs at the proper time in the engine’s cycle there will be pressure applied to the piston forcing it downward on the power stroke. The ignition points will continue to open further after this has occurred. How far they open is immaterial, their work has been done for that cycle of engine operation. What is important is when they open relative to the position of the piston on its compression/power revolution. If it occurs too soon there will be backfiring, too late and there will be a reduction of power. In the case of our Kohler engines the sweet spot is twenty degrees Before Top Dead Center, that is what the “SP” mark on the flywheel is set to). At the moment the points open the condenser quenches the arc across the points extending their life, the rest of the time it just sits there.

The PDF we refer to on this site for static timing of the later model engines calls for an Ohm Meter to be used (PDF attached below). I prefer a 12 Volt Test Light. The light will be connected between the battery “+” terminal and the lead that connects the points to the coil (disconnected from the coil). When the points are closed the light will be on, the moment the points open the light will go off. You don’t have to be focused on if like you would on a meter. With the test light situated near the sight hole for the flywheel (spark plug out so the engine will turn with ease), turn the flywheel slowly by hand in the clockwise direction (counter-clockwise if on the PTO end) until the moment the light goes out. If the “SP” mark is centered in the hole you are done, if not you have a little work to do. This was the point where extending the lines to the outside came in handy. If the points are opening too late, they need to be opened further, if it occurs too early they need to be closed up some. Make gradual adjustments until the “SP” mark on the flywheel is centered in the sight hole at the moment the light goes out. Now tighten the screw securely and turn the engine over several revolutions to be sure the points are consistently opening at the proper moment.

[JoeM 7,871]

While on the topic, I need to ask. I purchased an 12 hp used engine from a puller type guy and it looked like it had an adapter plate and used Chevy style points. Is that what I was looking at or not. Might look around the barn and see if I can find that stuff today. 

Looked at Miller web site and it shows the set up I found on that old 12hp. Pretty intense info too!

http://gardentractorpullingtips.com/ignition.htm

 

Edited February 16, 2020 by TractorJunkie

[stevasaurus 22,706]

That plate that lets you use Chevy D-106 ps points comes from a speed shop in Iowa.  The puller guys like them because of ease of set while running.  The problem the rest of us have, is the cover does not fit good over the bracket...thus dirt, grass and the like can get in around your points.  I think you can just unscrew the bracket and put the regular points back on.  

[JoeM 7,871]

54 minutes ago, stevasaurus said:

I think you can just unscrew the bracket and put the regular points back on

Yep, that's what I did, the motor ended up being a dog, I got taken on that one. Maybe one of these days  I will put in a new set of rings, 

[953 nut 55,065]

9 hours ago, TractorJunkie said:

Chevy style points

Here is the info.

Adjustable Chevy Ignition Points with Stiff Spring for Quick Reaction at High Engine RPMs. These points can be easily adapted for use on Kohler [pulling] engines with an adapter bracket for easy adjustment of the ignition timing with a hex key (Allen) wrench. Use with a minimum 3.0 ohm ignition coil to prevent premature burning of points contacts. Due to the inability to completely seal (cover) the ignition points contacts from dust, dirt and debris, these are for competition pulling only, and not for ordinary lawn & garden equipment. And being the bracket for the Chevy points and the Chevy points themselves are much larger than OEM Kohler points and bracket, the OEM Kohler points cover will not fit over the Chevy points and mounting bracket.

• High quality Chevy points with stiff spring, and without locking/jam nut. $10.00 each, plus shipping & handling.
• High quality Chevy points with stiff spring, and with locking/jam nut. Prevents adjustment screw from possibly loosening due to high RPM engine vibration. An original and ingenious idea by Brian Miller. $15.00 each, plus shipping & handling.
• Special mounting bracket (and cover) for Chevy points available from Midwest Super Cub.
• NOTE: Certain custom-made aluminum mounting brackets for Chevy points have the points mounting holes drilled and tapped too far from the engine block, making the OEM-length points pushrod too short and adjustment of the points gap impossible. The best solution to this, besides making a longer points pushrod, is new points mounting holes will need to be drilled and tapped closer to the engine block