modern LED lights on a 68' 800 special

[dv800special 5]

Hey guys, Im looking for some insight on a lighting issue i'm having. I've got a 1968 800 special, its kind of a Frankenstein, i replaced the motor with a kohler  k301 (12hp) This was my fathers that was left to me and the stock headlights are/were terrible so i picked up some 6" light bars from tractor supply and was hoping i could just throw them on and they work....wrong. They both worked great while it wasnt running, but once it was started both lights went out and wouldn't work after that. My guess is they're burnt out? I ran wire from the battery to relay switch then to the lights. I'm not good with wiring and was hoping that it would work...? but apparently not. Any help would be great, thanks!

[ZXT 2,401]

39 minutes ago, dv800special said:

Hey guys, Im looking for some insight on a lighting issue i'm having. I've got a 1968 800 special, its kind of a Frankenstein, i replaced the motor with a kohler  k301 (12hp) This was my fathers that was left to me and the stock headlights are/were terrible so i picked up some 6" light bars from tractor supply and was hoping i could just throw them on and they work....wrong. They both worked great while it wasnt running, but once it was started both lights went out and wouldn't work after that. My guess is they're burnt out? I ran wire from the battery to relay switch then to the lights. I'm not good with wiring and was hoping that it would work...? but apparently not. Any help would be great, thanks!

If you were powering the lights directly off of the battery, you shouldn't have had an issue. 

 

I don't see a need for a relay if they're LED bars. Did you have it connected to the battery directly or to another wire you believed had 12+ volts to it? If you accidentally tied into the stator wiring before the rectifier, that might be what happened. AC voltage and DC electronics don't mix well. If you could get us pictures of your wiring setup, we might be able to provide more insight on what happened.

[ebinmaine 67,266]

After you started the tractor and the lights didn't work, did you remove them and bench test them?

 

[953 nut 55,065]

I would suggest you run a new wire from the battery, through a fuse to a switch and then to your lights. 

[squonk 41,020]

Check your light ground! You can have a million volts at your lights but without a good ground they won't do squat but maybe shock you! If you bolted them too the hood the hood may have lost it's ground. 

 

Edited February 15, 2020 by squonk

[dv800special 5]

10 hours ago, ZXT said:

If you were powering the lights directly off of the battery, you shouldn't have had an issue. 

 

I don't see a need for a relay if they're LED bars. Did you have it connected to the battery directly or to another wire you believed had 12+ volts to it? If you accidentally tied into the stator wiring before the rectifier, that might be what happened. AC voltage and DC electronics don't mix well. If you could get us pictures of your wiring setup, we might be able to provide more insight on what happened.

Ill have to double check that it was directly to the battery, i am pretty sure it is. this was a last winter project and Id like to get back at it and make it work. also i dont have a battery charging mechanism set up. the old engine had a separate pulley with a "generator" mounted to it and the new motor was to big to fit both so i canned that. i dont know how to set up a new battery charging mechanism?

[dv800special 5]

On 2/14/2020 at 9:47 PM, ebinmaine said:

After you started the tractor and the lights didn't work, did you remove them and bench test them?

 

yeah they had a burnt look to them and were shot.

Edited February 16, 2020 by dv800special

[dv800special 5]

1 hour ago, 953 nut said:

I would suggest you run a new wire from the battery, through a fuse to a switch and then to your lights. 

ok i thought about this too, or maybe a new voltage reducer of some sort. my thought was that it got a surge of power when started but like one of the previous members stated, if it was run directly from the battery it shouldnt have had an issue. unless the ground is bad. 

[dv800special 5]

22 minutes ago, squonk said:

Check your light ground! You can have a million volts at your lights but without a good ground they won't do squat but maybe shock you! If you bolted them too the hood the hood may have lost it's ground. 

 

ok,will do. thanks! also the lights had a wired ground. so i dont thing their frame would have effected the actual ground? unless the wire i thought was a ground was a neutral? sorry haha not good with wiring and have been self taught for everything else

[ebinmaine 67,266]

8 minutes ago, dv800special said:

also i dont have a battery charging mechanism set up. the old engine had a separate pulley with a "generator" mounted to it and the new motor was to big to fit both so i canned that. i dont know how to set up a new battery charging mechanism

 

 

You may have an answer there....

 

That engine should put out about 32 to 36 volts at full throttle.

 

You may have sent that to the lights.

 

You'll want to set up a circuit similar to a mid seventies B or C series.

 

DO THIS SOON 

 

Overcharging a battery will be FAR more of a problem than a burnt light.

 

 

[dv800special 5]

And thanks for the welcoming! 

[dv800special 5]

@ebinmaine  ok, in not sure how to do that. ill have to research a 70s c or d tractor wiring set up. bc the only wiring going to and from this kohler engine is to the starter haha thats it.

[ebinmaine 67,266]

8 minutes ago, dv800special said:

And thanks for the welcoming! 

Great bunch of folks around here

 

 

5 minutes ago, dv800special said:

@ebinmaine  ok, in not sure how to do that. ill have to research a 70s c or d tractor wiring set up. bc the only wiring going to and from this kohler engine is to the starter haha thats it.

No worries.

 

We'll get you and the tractor fixed right up.

 

Make sure it's B or C series. D is a different beast...

 

 

Take a few pics of what you have and we can see what we're up against.

And ... We all love tractor pictures...

 

 

[dv800special 5]

@ebinmaine ok ill get some pictures and get back to you all. thanks agian

 

[ZXT 2,401]

Assuming the replacement K301 wasn't a starter generator engine as your old engine was, it should have a stator under the flywheel, with either two or three wires sticking out. If you do have that, all you'll need to buy is a voltage regulator/rectifier and wire it in, which is simple to do. I have the wiring diagram somewhere, but I know either Pullstart or 953 nut has it as well if I can't find it.

 

1 hour ago, ebinmaine said:

Overcharging a battery will be FAR more of a problem than a burnt light.

 

 I don't think he has the stator tied directly into the battery - 36 volts DC would certainly overcharge the battery, but we're talking AC voltage here. It would probably blow the battery up shortly after starting. I don't think he's had this happen. 

 

1 hour ago, dv800special said:

ok i thought about this too, or maybe a new voltage reducer of some sort. my thought was that it got a surge of power when started but like one of the previous members stated, if it was run directly from the battery it shouldnt have had an issue. unless the ground is bad. 

Are these lights LED or a traditional incandescent bulb? If they're LED, a power "surge" (even though there is no way the tractor could put out a surge, especially with no charging system) probably wouldn't hurt them. LEDs can run on many different voltages. If they're not led, however, a surge would definitely blow them out.

 

Also, make sure they were 12v light bars to begin with. I don't know why they would be different, but if they're 6v incandescent bars for whatever reason and you put 12v to them, that would do it too.

[dv800special 5]

The light i was attempting to use is a 30W and the voltage is DC9-60V.  so its a t 12 volt light

 

[dv800special 5]

On 2/14/2020 at 9:38 PM, ZXT said:

If you were powering the lights directly off of the battery, you shouldn't have had an issue. 

 

I don't see a need for a relay if they're LED bars. Did you have it connected to the battery directly or to another wire you believed had 12+ volts to it? If you accidentally tied into the stator wiring before the rectifier, that might be what happened. AC voltage and DC electronics don't mix well. If you could get us pictures of your wiring setup, we might be able to provide more insight on what happened.

In the photos attached. The smallest red wires are the positives for the lights. I didn’t wire them directly to the battery. It looks like they are wired to the solenoid. As seen in the second photo. Would this cause the surge or voltage inconsistencies? Also does anyone know of the black box above the shifter is a rectifier? If so I’ll just wire that to the battery and won’t need to order one. Unless they are specific to particular engines? 

Edited February 19, 2020 by dv800special

[dv800special 5]

so after some research ive discovered that the black box is a delco remy voltage regulator, a 6v i believe, appears to be from the 50's. assuming its functioning as it should, would this work for charging my battery? @ZXT @ebinmaine @953 nut

[953 nut 55,065]

That will not work for your engine. You will need a voltage regulator like the one below.

On 2/15/2020 at 8:25 AM, ebinmaine said:

That engine should put out about 32 to 36 volts at full throttle

The 32 to 36 volts is AC and your light operates on DC so it was probably not been harmed.

Can you give us the SPEC NUMBER from your engine? Is there a rectangular hoe in the engine cover where a voltage regulator may have been mounted?

 

[dv800special 5]

Spec NO. Is  47404d

[ZXT 2,401]

4 hours ago, dv800special said:

In the photos attached. The smallest red wires are the positives for the lights. I didn’t wire them directly to the battery. It looks like they are wired to the solenoid. As seen in the second photo. Would this cause the surge or voltage inconsistencies? Also does anyone know of the black box above the shifter is a rectifier? If so I’ll just wire that to the battery and won’t need to order one. Unless they are specific to particular engines? 

Yes, that's definitely a Delco regulator. Not necessarily a 6v. That regulator and similar were used on cars that had generators - just like your original engine. Works fine for that application but is useless for you. 

 

I can't see how pulling power off of the solenoid would harm the lights. Maybe the light was just a dud? 

 

3 hours ago, 953 nut said:

That will not work for your engine. You will need a voltage regulator like the one below.

 

Is there any reason one couldn't use one of the smaller engine shroud mounted regulators in place of the large one you posted? Or is it just a matter of cutting the hole in the shroud to cool it?

 

Looks like an Ariens spec K301

[953 nut 55,065]

6 hours ago, ZXT said:

Is there any reason one couldn't use one of the smaller engine shroud mounted regulators in place of the large one you posted? Or is it just a matter of cutting the hole in the shroud to cool it?

That is why I asked if there is a hole in the shroud. Without air flow the smaller R/R will not last very long.

[ebinmaine 67,266]

You could put it where I just did on the Charger hydro project. Basically right between your knees on the outside face of the steering tower. Easy access. Good airflow.

 

[ZXT 2,401]

12 hours ago, ebinmaine said:

You could put it where I just did on the Charger hydro project. Basically right between your knees on the outside face of the steering tower. Easy access. Good airflow.

 

Looks like that's where the current regulator is mounted. Easy to access, but I can see having the wires out there catching on things being a problem. Also not much protection from the elements if it spends much time outside. It's not something that needs servicing often enough to have it out there, IMO. 

[ebinmaine 67,266]

1 hour ago, ZXT said:

Looks like that's where the current regulator is mounted. Easy to access, but I can see having the wires out there catching on things being a problem. Also not much protection from the elements if it spends much time outside. It's not something that needs servicing often enough to have it out there, IMO. 

Current? Regulator?

See what ya did there?

 

Couldn't resist....

 

If his is a battery ignition it wouldn't be quite as important to have easy access but is still a good idea to keep it cool.

 

The inside of those vintage tractors steering column support is pretty sheltered. Later regulator mount places it partially outside.

 

Catching a wire is an understandable concern.

A loose wire is also a chafing concern.

I fasten all my harnesses to the tractor frame or sheet metal to prevent that.