Input Shaft/Gear 1961 701 - #5007 Transmission

[rmaynard 15,427]

I'm in the middle of cleaning and inspecting a #5007 transmission (1961 701). I had to replace the axle bearings, so a complete tear-down was in order. Now that I have inspected everything, I am a little concerned about the input shaft/gear #3522, and the high-second gear #3523.

 

Is there too much wear on this #3522?

 

 

The inner teeth of high-second gear are worn, but I have one from a 1975 4-speed that looks better.

 

Here is the 1961

 

 

Here is the 1975

 

When I mate the 3522 and the old 3523 gears, there is a lot of play. When I mate the 3522 with the 1975 gear there is less. 

 

What is considered to be too much play between the two?

 

Thanks.

[Racinbob 11,040]

No problems slipping out of 3rd gear before the tear down Bob? I'd use the better of the gears and I think you'll be fine. One thing to check after you reassemble. Put it in 3rd gear and just let the detent balls hold it there. See if there's any in/out play on the input shaft. If there is any at all determine approx. how much and tear it down again and put an appropriate arbor shim on the input shaft behind the gear. You want zero play. A tad too thick on the shim is OK. Just a tad. 

[Racinbob 11,040]

Another thing. If you have the shift rails and stop pin from the newer transmission it would be a good idea to use them in the 5007. The rails have the deeper neutral detent and the stop pin is 3/4" vs the 11/16" older style. The balls and springs are the same. 

[rmaynard 15,427]

Thanks Bob. I don't know about popping out of third gear. I bought it at the big show 2 years ago and drove it onto the trailer. I don't think that I ever put it in third. Once I got home I started stripping her down. I do have the newer shift rails and they are in good shape. I will also reassemble using the newer gear. Somewhere I may still have an input shaft from the newer 4-speed, but it remains allusive at this time.

[stevasaurus 22,706]

Bob, everything RacinBob said.  I would add that your input shaft did not look that bad.  One thing I've noticed, these transmissions usually do not pop out of third just going down the road...it takes a load, like running into a snow bank while plowing snow.  The sudden stop, or close to a sudden stop, will do it everytime.  

[rmaynard 15,427]

On 2/1/2020 at 8:57 AM, Racinbob said:

Another thing. If you have the shift rails and stop pin from the newer transmission it would be a good idea to use them in the 5007. The rails have the deeper neutral detent and the stop pin is 3/4" vs the 11/16" older style. The balls and springs are the same. 

I re-assembled the transmission using the newer rails. I tried using the longer pin, but I could not get the last rail passed the ball. Had to use the 3/4" pin. After assembly, I found some in/out play on the input shaft. Going to add a shim. However, my main concern is the I moved the shift rail into 2nd gear and could not get it back to neutral. While in the 2nd gear position, the entire transmission was locked up. I've got it apart again and checking everything. The only thing I have found is that it is extremely difficult to move the shift rails of their detent.

[ebinmaine 67,266]

Any metal burrs?

Maybe mic the new and replacement rails?

Too much or too thick grease in a hole?

Not in these transmissions specifically but I've seen similar issues watching others work in equipment.

 

[rmaynard 15,427]

Everything seems okay now after taking apart and re-assembling.

[Racinbob 11,040]

I figured something else had to be going on here. First, the 3/4" stop pin is the longer pin. To use it you must have the newer style rails. The shorter 11/16" pin can be used with any combination of new or old rails but you won't get the benefit of this upgrade. When you're installing the second rail (1st/reverse rail) the detent ball must be in one of the detents in the first rail (2nd/3rd rail) installed, preferably the deeper neutral detent. If this wasn't the case the whole reason they did this upgrade wouldn't work. Really, it's more confusing to say than to do. Check out service bulletin #60. That probably explains it better than I can. 

[rmaynard 15,427]

Bob, I finally figured that out. Sometimes me and fractions don't get along. LOL I put a shim under the input gear and tightened that up. I'm going to open it up one more time and see which pin I used. I have a 3/4" and 11/16" sitting in the bin and had 3 pins to start with. Me thinks I probably put a 3/4" back in. 

[WHX?? 48,763]

Hope you don't mind Bob but since you have the ear of our tranny specialists. 

I currently have open what I believe to be a 5025 out of a 702. I know the tranny has been opened before due to lack of a gasket but copius amounts of gasket maker of the silicone type. Also  the input gears appear to have been replaced and have a chrome plating that is flaking off. I have not seen this before. Hard to see in the pics but is there. 3rd gear and input look to be ok and never had problems popping out. 

 

So the reason I had this apart since a frame up repaint is every once in awhile it appears to have gotten stuck in two gears at once. PO Tom @Shynon says he never had it apart when he restoed the tractor. 

The shift pin stop was missing and the detent spring is a little out of shape but not bad and the balls look ok. The IPL shows a stop pin..

I'm guessing I should fashion one out of say a roll pin or nail 3/4" long? 

The rail detents are all of equal depths and have no anti suction flats. Should I file a flat spot on them? 

Edited February 6, 2020 by WHX24

[Racinbob 11,040]

No problem at all Jim.

First off, you'll need 11/16" pins not 3/4". The 3/4" can only be used if your rails have the deeper neutral detent. Grinding the flat wouldn't be a bad idea. I did that video that kinda, sorta showed how it helped. 

[WHX?? 48,763]

Thanks @Racinbob 11/16 or .688 it is then....   I cannot find that service bulletin 60 to save my @$$ ! Have you got a copy? 

Dan @Achto what transmission did you say you were having issues with and the right length stop pin? 

[Achto 27,502]

23 minutes ago, WHX24 said:

Dan @Achto what transmission did you say you were having issues with and the right length stop pin? 

 

It was on a 653 tranny. I started at 11/16 with the pin then kept making it shorter with no success on installing the second rail. I finally got POed and did not install the stop pin on mine as I thought that it served no purpose. With all of the detents in the shift rails being exactly the same depth, I did not really see where it would do any good.

 

On the 6 speed tranny in my '68 Raider the detents in the rails when it is in gear are shallower than the neutral detents. With this setup I can see how the pin would hold one rail from moving while the other was in gear.

Edited February 7, 2020 by Achto

[Racinbob 11,040]

26 minutes ago, Achto said:

 

It was on a 653 tranny. I started at 11/16 with the pin then kept making it shorter with no success on installing the second rail. I finally got POed and did not install the stop pin on mine as I thought that it served no purpose. With all of the detents in the shift rails being exactly the same depth, I did not really see where it would do any good.

 

On the 6 speed tranny in my '68 Raider the detents in the rails when it is in gear are shallower than the neutral detents. With this setup I can see how the pin would hold one rail from moving while the other was in gear.

 

I'd say you're right Dan. It might help to keep the spring from distorting but I doubt it. 

 

40 minutes ago, WHX24 said:

Thanks @Racinbob 11/16 or .688 it is then....   I cannot find that service bulletin 60 to save my @$$ ! Have you got a copy? 

Dan @Achto what transmission did you say you were having issues with and the right length stop pin? 

 

Here's the best I could do Jim. Apparently I didn't get from here. 

 

[WHX?? 48,763]

Was there a pin in it when you took it apart Dan? Any sign of someone being in there before? 

Sure does look like one is supposed to be in there.

I'll try a 11/16 just for grins... if it gives me grief getting the second rail in I'll ditch it too. 

Looks like a 653 would have had a 5025 tranny in it if orginal. 

Anybody have thoughts on making the neutral detents deeper and using a 3/4 pin? 

Transmission guide is from Lowell... 

Edited February 7, 2020 by WHX24