New to me electro 12 not doing so well

[troutbum70 857]

Today was the first I have actually ran the tractor much, first off it does fairly well on level to slight incline. I have a section of my yard that is probably about a 60 to 70 percent grade, it makes it to the top but runs out of power to the point you think it may stall and that is with motion control completely forward. The exhaust coming out of it would choke a horse, real bad and that's out doors. Can't even stand it running inside. Hydro fluid is a little below dipstick and that's with it screwed into case, but will be draining and refilling with new filter. Thinking carb either needs adjusting or cleaning or even rebuild, did notice the rod down through top of carb from governor seems a little sloppy. And not sure the governor is even coming in on the hard pull, did check for proper adjustment and put spring in third hole from the bottom it was in the very bottom one. Have not looked at the points yet either. So I am looking for thoughts and opinions. Also even after it is warmed up and shut it off for a bit it requires a little bit of chock to restart.

[ebinmaine 67,266]

9 minutes ago, troutbum63 said:

looking for thoughts

Believe it or not you've already answered yourself.

 

 

10 minutes ago, troutbum63 said:

draining and refilling with new filter. *** CARB *** NEEDS ***** REBUILD,

 

And a throttle shaft repair washer.

 

Easy fix.

 

 

[Ed Kennell 38,021]

Sounds like a compression check is also in order.

[troutbum70 857]

Eb I felt that was my direction to go, just looking for more experience with opinions, I am not familiar with throttle shaft repair washer or where best place to get. Ed I did  do a compression test, but with the acr you know its not much of a test. I got 30 lbs. pounds out it, I left the compression tester on it for a little over an hour and lost maybe 5 pounds. So I need to do a leak down test, I know I could put a drill on the crank and run it backwards but my understanding is that can be damaging and or get a broken wrist out it.

[lynnmor 7,302]

2 hours ago, troutbum63 said:

Today was the first I have actually ran the tractor much, first off it does fairly well on level to slight incline. I have a section of my yard that is probably about a 60 to 70 percent grade, it makes it to the top but runs out of power

 

The exhaust coming out of it would choke a horse, real bad and that's out doors. Can't even stand it running inside.

 

Thinking carb either needs adjusting or cleaning or even rebuild

 

Also even after it is warmed up and shut it off for a bit it requires a little bit of chock to restart.

 

All of this would point me to a bad carb, perhaps the float is bad, whatever, there is way too much fuel coming thru.

[JoeM 7,871]

Sounds like there are some issues, and your on the right track for better performance.

One thing I know is I started out here with a B100A. It had a 10 hp Kohler that ran pretty good. My back yard is fairly steep and it too would run out of steam near the top. Especially when running the mower. That was almost impossible. I would have to reduce the speed control on the hydro to let the engine catch up. I actually would cut on a angle to get the best performance. 

Later on, the 10 hp was replaced with and out of the box 12 hp new engine. It ran pretty good, but it also lacked the power on the hill, not as bad as the 10 but better. 

Hydro transmissions are a great tool but the sad part of the story is they are pretty parasitic. The trade off for variable speed and braking. 

I found I needed a pretty good 16 hp to handle the job. 

On flat ground with mild inclines the smaller engines would work just fine. My daughter uses that 12 hp, now 25 years later to mow her place. It is about half as steep as mine and it handles the job.

[953 nut 55,065]

8 hours ago, troutbum63 said:

makes it to the top but runs out of power to the point you think it may stall and that is with motion control completely forward.

A set of Acceleration Valve Springs will probably make a BIG difference. Wheelhorsepartsandmore sells them.

[ebinmaine 67,266]

7 hours ago, troutbum63 said:

Eb I felt that was my direction to go, just looking for more experience with opinions, I am not familiar with throttle shaft repair washer or where best place to get

The washer goes at the top of the throttle shaft.

@JCM and I did a couple and I made a thread to show it.

 

That's a fairly easy repair and takes PATIENCE sometimes to carefully remove the throttle shaft from the carb.

The screws need to be ground down on the back side to eliminate the "staked" part so they'll back out.

 

The washers can be bought from McMaster Carr.

@JCM @pfrederi and others could get you the part number.

 

It would hold you up a couple weeks with shipping time but I'd be glad to rebuild that carb for you if you'd rather not.

Cover the cost of parts, shipping and loctite. 

[ebinmaine 67,266]

@troutbum63

Here's the post.

 

 

 

[Ed Kennell 38,021]

9 hours ago, troutbum63 said:

Eb I felt that was my direction to go, just looking for more experience with opinions, I am not familiar with throttle shaft repair washer or where best place to get. Ed I did  do a compression test, but with the acr you know its not much of a test. I got 30 lbs. pounds out it, I left the compression tester on it for a little over an hour and lost maybe 5 pounds. So I need to do a leak down test, I know I could put a drill on the crank and run it backwards but my understanding is that can be damaging and or get a broken wrist out it.

The need for choke indicates there is air being sucked into the carb.   This is easy to locate by spraying carb cleaner around the carb throttle shaft and gasket.  The RPM will increase if there is an air leak.

On  the non runners I buy, I check the compression and listen for noise by driving the engine with another tractor.  I park them front to front with the PTOs in alignment.  Then connect the PTOs with a long belt with a 180 degree twist.    I can then drive the non runner ( in the correct direction) to do compression checks, listen for noise, and even start the engine without a working starter or battery.   With battery ignition, I simply jump 12VAC to the + coil post and supply fuel with a small gravity feed tank.  These easy inexpensive checks are used to determine if the tractor will be reconditioned or parted out. 

I use the same technique to test the hydros on non runners.  Here the driving tractor is parked at the rear of a non runner that is strapped to a tree.   The drivers  PTO is connected to the hydro pulley with the long belt.   If the hydro can spin the tires through the full range of forward/reverse , I consider it a good hydro.

[troutbum70 857]

Eb my throttle shaft only has a wee bit of side to side movement nothing even close to the sloppy one in the video. 953 I am not at all familar with those springs you mentioned, done a search at Lowell's site and came up with nothing. I guess I expected the 12 horse to be a power house not understanding the power loss in hydro. Eb if it comes to the throttle shaft bushing I may take you up on offer as am no machinist. I am going to start with checking and possible cleaning points or replace. The carb I am going to remove bowl while on tractor remove needle valves a spray it down with carb cleaner readust and see if any change. And also check for air leaks as Ed mentioned.

[ebinmaine 67,266]

3 minutes ago, troutbum63 said:

carb I am going to remove bowl while on tractor remove needle valves a spray it down with carb cleaner readust and see if any change. And also check for air leaks as Ed mentioned

You'd certainly be headed the right way with that. 

I'd recommend getting a can of brake clean handy to spray through the carb.

Please have a camera on hand and post a pic of the inside of the bowl.

 

My carb was an extreme example but there shouldn't be much play at the top of the shaft. 

 

 

Do keep us posted.

 

[pfrederi 17,663]

2 hours ago, 953 nut said:

A set of Acceleration Valve Springs will probably make a BIG difference. Wheelhorsepartsandmore sells them.

 

I believe Lowell withdrew his springs there was an issue with the small ones he is having them remade.

[ZXT 2,401]

2 minutes ago, troutbum63 said:

Eb my throttle shaft only has a wee bit of side to side movement nothing even close to the sloppy one in the video. 953 I am not at all familar with those springs you mentioned, done a search at Lowell's site and came up with nothing. I guess I expected the 12 horse to be a power house not understanding the power loss in hydro. Eb if it comes to the throttle shaft bushing I may take you up on offer as am no machinist. I am going to start with checking and possible cleaning points or replace. The carb I am going to remove bowl while on tractor remove needle valves a spray it down with carb cleaner readust and see if any change. And also check for air leaks as Ed mentioned.

I take it that you haven't been inside the carb before? It's likely due for a cleaning. I'd pull it apart and spray every passage out. If there is a blockage that you can't get out with the pressure of the spray can, a torch tip cleaner that's slightly smaller than the diameter of the hole will do the trick.

 

From your description, I don't think there's a thing wrong with your hydro. I know Richard mentioned the acceleration springs, but the fact that the engine is bogging down tells me that the hydro is engaging fine and that the engine simply isn't gutsy enough. Lets not forget that a 70 percent grade is friggin' steep! I'm not sure i'd feel safe driving it up that. 

[pfrederi 17,663]

I loaned a Charger 12 to my neighbor it has a 48 inch deck and handles his steep graded back lot with no problem.

 

1  Carb Clean

 

2. Points and timing ...Unless you have a breakerless system. 

 

3. Leakdown test

Edited February 1, 2020 by pfrederi

[troutbum70 857]

70% might be a little exaggerated but it's pretty steep, I flipped my 417 on the hill a long time ago. I know my little 8 horse commando 800 would have no power problem on same hill, but is manual shift.

[tom2p 2,394]

 

decent running hydro tractor should have little or no issue on a steep grade compared to manual transmission tractor 

 

especially because most hydro tractors are 12 hp and greater 

 

having stated that ...

 

70% grade or even 60% grade is to be avoided 

 

not good for the operator  - operator will be transformed into flat stanley if/when the tractor flips 

 

not good for the tractor - especially  with lower hp engine that will typically not have a pressurized lubrication system

 

 

if possible plant ground cover / shrubs / trees / place rock / whatever on the areas with steep or difficult grades 

 

one of the first things we did when we moved into our place was to plant ground cover and shrubs on the areas with steep / difficult grades 

 

did not want to find my kids laying under a 700 lb wheel horse tractor

 

 

Edited February 1, 2020 by tom2p

[JoeM 7,871]

For years I have been cutting a +18 % slope for 120 x 280 feet or so. There are places where you could flip if not being careful. No place for kid operators. 

Get r running the best you can and try it out, worse case might have to bump up to 416 or so.

I must say the hydro is much easier to control on the hill because of not having to clutch with brake. 

[troutbum70 857]

All my side hill mowing these days since I retired is done with an all wheel drive walk behind, which takes in 90 percent of my yard. 

[Darb1964 1,042]

Much good advice like always, going in a different direction. Could there be something dragging like the break when you move the hydro all the way forward. I had that happen with a 518-h I picked up a few years ago. Not familiar with electro 12 but a healthy twelve should have little trouble with the work described.

 

[troutbum70 857]

Pfredri I assume the springs would be utilized in the hydro system. Darb I have given thought on if the brake may be dragging a bit, I am not sure if the brake ties in some how with the motion control. Will give that some inspection as well. And I do firmly believe that this 12 horse if running properly it should rip up that hill with much power to spare. I am really thinking because of all the carbon monoxide fumes that are really bad coming off the bugger that it is a carburetor/ignition issue causing the loss of pulling power.  I am considering useing a speed wrench on the crank to see if I can spin it over fast enough backwards to get a true compression check. See how that pans out.

[pfrederi 17,663]

There is no physical brake on an electro.  Later models had a real brake band that could drag yours did not.  all the "brake pedal" did was move the motion control lever to neutral.  Do a leak down test much more diagnostically useful than a back ward compression test.

Edited February 2, 2020 by pfrederi

[troutbum70 857]

Okay I also am very new to the hydro and that is all I could see that brake pedal does is to return motion control to neutral. I also have found at this point the only way to stop on a hill or where ever is to reverse direction on motion control. So I am familiar with the term of a leak down test, not sure why it would be more beneficial than a compression test. Seems like a matter of different opinions. Not sure how much pressure should be applaid nor how long to watch for pressure loss. I would think to apply around 120 to maybe 140 lbs. I am sure the sooner and greater the loss the greater is the problem.

[pfrederi 17,663]

Leak down test will tell you if it is valves (and which one intake or exhaust) or rings and is unaffected by ACR

[troutbum70 857]

Okay and I don't have a leak down tester, so will do old fashioned way. By applying 30 or40 lbs of air at tdc and listen at exhaust, carb with throttle open, and oil fill tube for any air leaking by. Or hold a feather at those points to see any air leaking by.