New addict horse #2 coming home

[Greentored 3,217]

(apologies and moderator feel free to move if this should be in 'engines')

Jumping the gun by a few hours due to excitement, but by the time most of you see this thread, a 'field fresh' 654 will be on the trailer and headed to the stable. The catch- no deck and no engine. I'd like to set this one up to do occasional yard work, but for the most part, have an extra pulley and belt and use it as a trail toy/cruiser, maybe even attend a local tractor pull and hook it to a sled for the hell of it.

So, for conversation's sake- I need some engine opinions. Find a correct Tecumseh?  Look for a Kohler? Or-

1. I have a mildly modified 6.5hp 212cc Predator 'honda clone' off a kart I used to race. It was a Christmas gift from my girlfriend our first year together so its 'kinda' sedimental. 

2. Theres a HIGHLY modified 5hp Briggs under the work bench, also off a kart. Wiseco piston, billet rod, billet lifters, BIG cam, set up for alcohol. I'd put it on gas as the carb and fuel tank would need to come off anyhow due to where the engine sits in these.

3. Way back in the archives in the back room, theres a 11hp, 340cc OHV on a McCulloch generator with a broken crank snout. It doesnt have 20 hours on it, and non-tapered cranks are available.

  Im aware that the OHV stuff would need to be moved rearward due to clearance issues in stock location. Im also aware that this being a tractor, I should be concentrating on torque, not horsepower and rpms, although that Briggs with its lumpy idle and 7000rpm redline would make one helluva head turner.

So what should I do? What would YOU do? How beefy are these 3 speeds? Haha

PS- those 212 Predators are one HELL of a good engine by the way, especially for 99 bucks at harbor freight. We would pull the governors, change the air filter, pipe, main jet, valve springs, bump the ignition timing, and turn them 5500-5800rpms all day long! The only guys who blew them up were the ones who didnt keep the oil changed, and when they let loose at those rpms, they got picked up with a broom and dust pan

 

Edited January 31, 2020 by Greentored

[ebinmaine 68,874]

22 minutes ago, Greentored said:

HIGHLY modified 5hp Briggs

If it's only for a cruiser.....

 

You can (in a way)  calm it down by changing the pulleys to adjust the speed as you well know.

 

Horse transmissions are pretty stout... But maybe not made to turn to awful fast....

 

 

This could be interesting................

 

 

 

 

[Achto 27,913]

My first choice would be an 8hp Kohler, hard working engine, easy to get parts. My second choice would be a Predator 212, good engine, very little modifications to make it work.

[oliver2-44 9,929]

34 minutes ago, Achto said:

My first choice would be an 8hp Kohler, hard working engine, easy to get parts. My second choice would be a Predator 212, good engine, very little modifications to make it work.

[JoeM 7,874]

4 hours ago, Greentored said:

have a mildly modified 6.5hp 212cc Predator 'honda clone' off a kart I used to race. It was a Christmas gift from my girlfriend our first year together so its 'kinda' sedimental.

Good fit and might score you some points! 

[Pullstart 63,201]

Awesome score!  The clone engine will need to be moved back to clear the hood.  If you’re prepared to make or modify the belt guard, I’d say that might be the ticket.  Is the Briggs in a vertical piston layout like a Kohler or Tecky?  Fitment wise, that might be the best candidate.  The 11 horse sounds fun too!

[WHX?? 49,486]

I can't decide... how bout stretch the frame and all three!

[stevasaurus 22,910]

I'd say it is OK to post this thread here.  

 

The only way I would put an original Tecumseh back on it, is if I had one in the shop.  It is getting impossible to find parts for them and the price for parts is through the roof.  8hsp Kohler would be great for trails.  

[Greentored 3,217]

Thanks guys!  She's home, and as an added bonus, he threw the Tecumseh in with it. That would make the decision easy, but I was not aware the parts are getting hard to find for them, and this one needs points, flywheel (tossed a magnet) and carb. Might go on the shelf.

Glad to hear a OHV clone is not blasphemy haha. Might peek around for a Kohler 8hp that some of you mentioned.

The wagon was the real score! Needed one for yard work and didnt even realize it was a Wheel Horse til I got there. Pristine, stored indoors, 50 beans. Did I do ok?

[tom2p 2,394]

1 hour ago, Greentored said:

Thanks guys!  She's home, and as an added bonus, he threw the Tecumseh in with it. That would make the decision easy, but I was not aware the parts are getting hard to find for them, and this one needs points, flywheel (tossed a magnet) and carb. Might go on the shelf.

Glad to hear a OHV clone is not blasphemy haha. Might peek around for a Kohler 8hp that some of you mentioned.

The wagon was the real score! Needed one for yard work and didnt even realize it was a Wheel Horse til I got there. Pristine, stored indoors, 50 beans. Did I do ok?

wth $50

were you wearing a mask or did you have a loaded gun ?

 

small old garden tractors are great to have around a shop

 

great conversation piece (at a minimum) - and with a plow or whatever they can be especially useful 

 

 

btw - check out recent thread in engines - cschannuth 606 with 212 predator installed 

 

looks and sounds great - and the exhaust pipe outstanding 

 

Edited February 1, 2020 by tom2p

[ebinmaine 68,874]

12 hours ago, Greentored said:

50 beans. Did I do ok?

 

Uhh yeah....

 

Wicked niiice find.

 

[wallfish 17,112]

8 hp Kohler in my 654.

If going Kohler, the older starter generator type would be better so the battery will fit in the tray. Or pull start. The gear start engine starter will block the battery tray a little but the battery can go under the seat like mine is. You would need to change the ignition switch to a battery ignition unless you go pull start style and use a smaller air cleaner from a K91, but simple stuff to have a great engine. I love the 8hp Kohlers as they always want to run.

 That white block Tecumseh probably isn't the original engine anyway and people have been having good luck with the preditor engines too. I prefer the old school look on an old school tractor but that's just me.

Nice find!

[Pullstart 63,201]

I vote for something @pullstart!

 

In all reality, around here people give away for next to nothing old Tecky powered snowblowers and tillers.  That might be a good source for one, though snowblowers don’t usually have air cleaners. 

 

If you find an ignition source source for that Tecky you have, a Kohler carb will fit and works great for my tractor we call Jane (as in Plain Jane).

 

 

[Greentored 3,217]

Ok fellas, Im having a moral dilemna here and keep thinking the ol girl needs flathead power, peferably Kohler, and I could unload the Briggs and 11hp OHV and pay for one, or close. The word of the day is torque, which means big displacement, big compression.

Can anyone toss me an overall height measurement on their Kohler K's? Sure would be cool to shoehorn a 12-16hp in it, but cutting the hood is not an option.

Regardless, it will not be factory stock. I have the skills and equipment to do about anything with these little one lung'rs- wherever the cards fall, it will be mildly ported, relieved, have big compression, and preferably be governed to a connecting rod safe RPM.

Edited February 6, 2020 by Greentored

[ebinmaine 68,874]

1 hour ago, Greentored said:

mildly ported, relieved, have big compression, and preferably be governed to a connecting rod safe RPM

Can't help with sizing til later today.

Someone will help you sooner.

 

Keep it below 3600 and put the squeeze to it.

 

@VinsRJ did a build on his YouTube channel.

 

I like the idea you have...

[oliver2-44 9,929]

A 16hp k341 measures 17-3/4 to to of spark plug. You can reduce that roughly an 1” by going to a low profile oil pan and cutting the connecting rod dipper shorter. There is a thread pinned at the top of the Engine section about blocks and oil pans. 
Ive talked to one of the puller engine rebuilders about building a stronger worker engine and this is what he said:

1.relieving the top of the block between the valves and cylinder gets the biggest improvement.

2.porting the block intake to match the carb dia.

3 use a bolted on exhaust and match pipe ID to block ID 

3 weld up spark plug hole and relocate to center of cylinder

4 remove casting flash from intake and exhaust, but polishing them gets minimal improvement so do the above items first

5 billet rods and cranks are not needed until you exceed 3600 RPM,s

[ebinmaine 68,874]

1 hour ago, oliver2-44 said:

A 16hp k341 measures 17-3/4 to to of spark plug. You can reduce that roughly an 1” by going to a low profile oil pan and cutting the connecting rod dipper shorter. There is a thread pinned at the top of the Engine section about blocks and oil pans. 
Ive talked to one of the puller engine rebuilders about building a stronger worker engine and this is what he said:

1.relieving the top of the block between the valves and cylinder gets the biggest improvement.

2.porting the block intake to match the carb dia.

3 use a bolted on exhaust and match pipe ID to block ID 

3 weld up spark plug hole and relocate to center of cylinder

4 remove casting flash from intake and exhaust, but polishing them gets minimal improvement so do the above items first

5 billet rods and cranks are not needed until you exceed 3600 RPM,s

 

 

Any discussion of how much extra horsepower or torque that offers?

 

Relieving the block is a new one to me. I'll have to look up and see how that's done.

[Pullstart 63,201]

5 hours ago, Greentored said:

Ok fellas, Im having a moral dilemna here and keep thinking the ol girl needs flathead power, peferably Kohler, and I could unload the Briggs and 11hp OHV and pay for one, or close. The word of the day is torque, which means big displacement, big compression.

Can anyone toss me an overall height measurement on their Kohler K's? Sure would be cool to shoehorn a 12-16hp in it, but cutting the hood is not an option.

Regardless, it will not be factory stock. I have the skills and equipment to do about anything with these little one lung'rs- wherever the cards fall, it will be mildly ported, relieved, have big compression, and preferably be governed to a connecting rod safe RPM.

 

It’ll take quite a bit of work to fit a big block UNDER the hood of a 654.  Not exactly the same body, but Frank is a 753 hood and it’s raised up about 3” to clear, plus I modified the steering shaft very heavily to shoehorn the short pan 10 horse in there after notching the frame too.

 

 

[Greentored 3,217]

Thanks for all the help guys!

@pullstart it took that much work to shoehorn a TEN horse? While I could certainly handle the modifications, not looking to go that crazy. Big Kohler swap might have to wait for the next tractor.

That 11hp OHV measures barely 12" from base to top of engine- actually a touch shorter than the 5hp briggs.

Just need to find a way to make it look like it belongs......

[The Tuul Crib 7,338]

10 minutes ago, Greentored said:

Thanks for all the help guys!

@pullstart it took that much work to shoehorn a TEN horse? While I could certainly handle the modifications, not looking to go that crazy. Big Kohler swap might have to wait for the next tractor.

That 11hp OHV measures barely 12" from base to top of engine- actually a touch shorter than the 5hp briggs.

Just need to find a way to make it look like it belongs......

You might get in touch with vinylguy  

one of our venders here. I got these decals for

my wagon that is just like the one you got, 

[ebinmaine 68,874]

1 hour ago, Greentored said:

Just need to find a way to make it look like it belongs

Correcting the paint color would help a lot.

 

Maybe a slightly drab finish to "age" it?

 

 

[Greentored 3,217]

Yep, I know who vinylguy is. I have his RJ59 hood decals on my 520H- beautiful work he does.  The wagon shows no sign of ever having wheel horse decals on it. The tag actually says "manufactured by Ohio steel fabricators, for Wheel Horse dealers"

Model WH10, serial 3141.  So is it even a TRUE WH wagon, I dunno, but it sure aint a wal mart special

@ebinmaine I agree, maybe just paint the tins and patina them like I did on that 520H, and fab up some kind of cool air cleaner, maybe an upright like the big green field tractors.

You know, something to match the stack, because you KNOW its gotta have a stack haha!

[Pullstart 63,201]

1 hour ago, Greentored said:

Thanks for all the help guys!

@pullstart it took that much work to shoehorn a TEN horse? While I could certainly handle the modifications, not looking to go that crazy. Big Kohler swap might have to wait for the next tractor.

That 11hp OHV measures barely 12" from base to top of engine- actually a touch shorter than the 5hp briggs.

Just need to find a way to make it look like it belongs......

 

Yeah, those round hoods weren’t meant for a big block, that’s for sure.

[oliver2-44 9,929]

On 2/6/2020 at 10:08 AM, ebinmaine said:

 

 

Any discussion of how much extra horsepower or torque that offers?

 

Relieving the block is a new one to me. I'll have to look up and see how that's done.

 

 @ebinmainehe claimed relieving the block gives about 1+hp

Edited February 7, 2020 by oliver2-44