Plumbing & Heating

[JCM 9,130]

Back on April  1  2019  @formariz  under the heading of Secret Room showed us what a Craftsman is capable of when he puts all his knowledge into a project after many years of an apprenticeship then to a journeyman and finally a master of his craft. It takes a certain mindset and determination and often makes you wonder why someone really has to be that fussy,the answer is because we were taught to do a job to the best of our ability so it would stand the test of time and maybe someone would pass on a good recommendation for us so we may be able to support ourselves and family and to have some nice creature comforts while we are on Earth. A big thank you to all the Master Craftsmen who came before us and passed those Trade Secrets to us. I recently found a few old SD cards with more Trade pics and thought I would share them. These are from 2 different jobs 1 Plumbing and 1 Heating back in 2014 and 2016. Note on the Heating job the boiler is not yet installed just the Supply &  Returns etc.

[Stepney 2,325]

Beautiful work, Jim! My father was a journeyman himself. Our basement looks quite similar. 

[dclarke 4,032]

You can sure tell you take pride in your work. Very well done, Jim! 

[Pullstart 62,740]

Wow, so cool!  What type of copper tubing do you use to keep the straight sections straight yet allow a good bend without kinking?

 

Also, do you work as a single guy on the job, or do you haul an apprentice along with you for cuts, holds, etc?

 

My simple plumbing jobs are preferably out of copper, whenever possible.  Why?  Pride in my work?  Art?  Money burning a hole in my pocket?  I have no clue.

 

 

[JCM 9,130]

@pullstart  Type  L  copper with a 40 plus year old  Holsclaw  gear bender .  Both of those jobs were done by myself, don't think I will be doing to many more of those, way to much work alone. I still run across where some people still want copper tube water piping and I for the most part prefer it that way but give them the PEX option. You do pretty good work there yourself my friend. That copper is hard drawn in 10' lengths.

Edited January 4, 2020 by JCM

[ZXT 2,401]

4 hours ago, JCM said:

@pullstart  Type  L  copper with a 40 plus year old  Holsclaw  gear bender .  Both of those jobs were done by myself, don't think I will be doing to many more of those, way to much work alone. I still run across where some people still want copper tube water piping and I for the most part prefer it that way but give them the PEX option. You do pretty good work there yourself my friend. That copper is hard drawn in 10' lengths.

Definitely some nice looking work.

 

I personally prefer Pex. Nobody is going to break in and steal Pex. Copper is a different story. Sure, it doesn't look as neat, but it's plumbing and 99.9% of people will never look at it or care. Same goes with electrical piping. 

 

I try to be neat with my work up to a point. If it's something that's going to be visible, I make an extra effort to make EMT as close to perfect as I can manage, but if it's something that's going to be hidden in a wall, It's not nearly as critical.

[rmaynard 15,411]

Because most of my plumbing work is done in an "improvement" environment, there is little or no room for natural bends, and therefore the use of sweated-in elbows and other fittings is a necessity. Having said that, the pictured work is a testament to what can be done when a pro plies his skills.

 

 

 

Beautiful work.

[tom2p 2,394]

11 hours ago, ZXT said:

 

 

I personally prefer Pex. Nobody is going to break in and steal Pex. Copper is a different story.
 

don't be so sure 

 

I'm part of the US Federal PEX Crime Task Force Bureau - and we have seen a significant increase in PEX related crimes over the past three years 

 

and then there is the PEX 'me too' movement that has gained strength throughout the US during the past few years 

 

 

lol

 

 

seriously - where do you live or work where copper theft is a problem ?

 

and as long as the wheel Horse tractors and parts are not touched - life is good  ... ???

 

 

lol

 

Edited January 4, 2020 by tom2p

[formariz 11,987]

@JCM I thank you for your kind words and would like to perhaps try to explain also a little more than you did, the reason why we do what we do and also why we like to show it. Some will undoubtedly think that it is just to stroke our egos specially if they are not familiar with what ever type of work we are referring to. The truth is however very far from that.  Your work in the plumbing trade is actually a better example for that than my work is. What I do is already expected prior to completion to look good and be admired not only for its appearance but also its quality and workmanship. What you do however is many times hidden not only from actual sight within a wall but most of the times in an area where no one but the end user really sees it on a regular basis. Perhaps that is also one of the reasons that generally such work is haphazard, sloppy and without thought. After all who sees it any way, and as long as it does not leak its good enough right? Sadly that is the general consensus today.

 

So when confronted with such work what does one think? Unfortunately today most consumers are uneducated as to what is good work and what should  be expected. What makes a man do that type of work when much less would be good enough? Certainly he could make much more money by not being so meticulous and do it faster. Instead of thinking in those terms one should just try a little bit to put themselves in that persons mindset.

I can only speak for myself but I believe there are more similarities than not in our thought process. Such process is not always easy since many factors come into to it that are inevitable, finances and time constraints being the biggest ones. There is always that struggle between wanting to do what we know is right and what is actually possible in order to obtain the work. For me that struggle may be easier, because what I do is already many times "luxury" work. People don't need what I do to live or function and that fact already makes me a very lucky person. Even then, many times comes the question,"how can we do it cheaper", or "the other guy was going to do it this way instead". I am fortunate enough in many of those situations that I can just politely walk away. Such a customer will always be blinded by the dollar signs and will never appreciate or be happy with the outcome. Nothing bad about the customer but I rather not deal with it since I have been there a few times.

 

Starting such a project requires of course planning although there are always changes and improvisations as we go. Personally I never follow a plan blindly and I am always thinking of better ways and outcomes as I go.In a way the plan keeps evolving. Work also never stops when not working. Always thinking about it in off times,realizing often at those times, the mistakes made. It is also while thinking about job in off times, that the indescribable satisfaction of pride and accomplishment becomes stronger and drives one to want to do even better. I think often of the ones that molded and inspired me, and what they would think of it or how they would go about it. In much of what I do I am also lucky to have many times physical references to fall on and learn even more. It is amazing how much one can learn from someone else's work. It is the same as reading a book. I can honestly say that I probably have learned more from individuals that have passed long ago than from living ones. Many times I only finally understood something they tried to teach me after they passed and later on  I "really" read their work.

 

Finally when the job is done, it is really never done. One is always thinking of the difficulties and shortcomings in finished jobs and learning for new ones. Constantly learning and thinking to become better.

And lastly, to me always a bit of sadness takes over. As time goes on the desire or need to become a craftsman is quickly eroding away. Lack of need, desire, time,patience, dedication, influence, and so on will eventually put an end to many of the skilled trades and crafts  we know. Luckily in trades like mine many individuals do it as a hobby, and I can honestly say that a lot of the best woodworkers out there do not do it for a living but rather as a hobby. I have been lucky to have been exposed to greatly  talented individuals through out my life who took the time and desire to share what they knew with me, and also to have been smart enough to recognize it when it was in front of me and take full advantage of it.

Edited January 4, 2020 by formariz

[tom2p 2,394]

keep up the great work 

quality work will never go out of style 

 

quality materials - and especially quality workmanship 

 

 

[JCM 9,130]

@formariz    I am speechless at the moment and Thank You for such a heartfelt response. I have tried over the years to teach someone and pass down my trade to them, but I was extremely difficult as a Boss but a good friend to many. It was always tough to separate boss from friends while engaged in the trade especially in my younger years and never had an employee last more than 3 months, they just would not put the effort in  to make it better than the last guy did it. I could go on and on but I am not as good of a writer as you are. I feel I need to say a lot more but won't bore you. Also, you are correct about the ego thing, I post these pictures to help those that don't really understand what really goes on where you can't see more than just what lies in the average  basement. When I view some of these resto's and see the final results of how these WH's look like when finished I am in awe. The mechanicals and super paint work is unbelievable and that is something I cannot make look as good as those for sure.One last comment , you individuals know who you are and I don't have to mention any names just don't ever stop being that meticulous, I love it.    Thanks for listening.

Edited January 4, 2020 by JCM

[WHX?? 48,743]

I'll have to see if I can dig up some pics of my infloor jobs. Trouble is when I was a installer we didn't have phone cameras and now that I am mostly a desk jockey don't get out in the trenches much unless it's side jobs to support my horse habit! Wished I had pics of some of my old sheet metal work. I am not allowed at the sheet metal tables anymore ... too many blood stains!

Here is a recent one I did. A Triangle Tube Challenger combi running 3000 sq ft of infloor with domestic.

You don't see type L bent like that around here Jim altho some of my guys do a wicked job on soft drawn ... thanks!

[JCM 9,130]

                  @WHX24      Triangle Tube, top notch boiler, I am so old school you would laugh if you saw my phone, still on the digital camera. I never liked sheet metal all that much, cut the end of my pinkey finger off cutting a 10'' piece of smoke pipe with a pair of milwaukee shears and had to have a plastic surgeon sow it back on with a stainless steel pin inserted, The tubing bender is not a real common tool anymore and kind of a lost art in the trade, but not with me , I still enjoy using it as often as possible, almost like pouring horizontal lead and oakum joints, just hate to give it up.

[WHX?? 48,743]

Yes all I have ever used is TT Jim ... very few issues when done right and the only mod con I will stock parts for. Mod cons these days are like butt holes... everyone's got one and most of them stink!

Oakum cast joints!?!?!... you are old skool! 

I get it tho with PEX, manablocs, press fittings  and new fangled plastic refrigerant lines. Plungers & tin knockers have to stay competitive and nowadays time is truly money. After all low bid means wondering what you left out ya know! 

We have this lake by us, Green Lake WI, Google it, the high end fibs from Chi town flock to it like flies around $h/% and put up multi million dollar homes but they would rather have eye candy like @formariz has to offer, no offense Cas, and end up going with a two bit HVAC system then when it doesn't satisfy them.

Quoting Mr Rodgers..... can you spell retirement.... sure I knew you could!  

[ZXT 2,401]

10 hours ago, tom2p said:

seriously - where do you live or work where copper theft is a problem ?

Where I live it isn't as much of a problem, but do some research - in certain parts of the country it is.. Especially when copper prices are up. 

 

I have had to rewire a few houses and pull new wire in a commercial building due to copper theft. It happens. 

 

Last year, we had to pull 250' of 2/0 copper feed wire to a mobile home due to theft. 3 weeks after we pulled the new wire, it was stolen again. Crack heads will do anything for their next fix.

Edited January 5, 2020 by ZXT

[adsm08 2,011]

5 minutes ago, ZXT said:

Where I live it isn't as much of a problem, but do some research - in certain parts of the country it is.. Especially when copper prices are up. 

 

I have had to rewire a few houses and pull new wire in a commercial building due to copper theft. It happens. 

 

Last year, we had to pull 250' of 2/0 copper feed wire to a mobile home due to theft. 3 weeks after we pulled the new wire, it was stolen again. Crack heads will do anything for their next fix.

 

When I was in college I was right near Wirerope Inc in Williamsport PA. One time some idiots stole a few industrial sized spools of copper wire and tried to turn it in for scrap at Staiman Recycling a few days later without even bothering to unspool it.

 

Here is the map for reference:

 

https://www.bing.com/maps?q=wire+rope+williamsport&form=EDGTCT&qs=AS&cvid=7623866930a540d2904c94671756dba1&refig=c64dcdd18073497ab9c6c786dc82e4a1&cc=US&setlang=en-US&plvar=0

[ZXT 2,401]

2 minutes ago, adsm08 said:

 

When I was in college I was right near Wirerope Inc in Williamsport PA. One time some idiots stole a few industrial sized spools of copper wire and tried to turn it in for scrap at Staiman Recycling a few days later without even bothering to unspool it.

 

Here is the map for reference:

 

https://www.bing.com/maps?q=wire+rope+williamsport&form=EDGTCT&qs=AS&cvid=7623866930a540d2904c94671756dba1&refig=c64dcdd18073497ab9c6c786dc82e4a1&cc=US&setlang=en-US&plvar=0

Lets just say that not everyone is a genius! There are stupid people, and then there are really stupid people. 

[WHX?? 48,743]

Not to get to far off Jim' topic here XLT  but the copper theft things are over with.. for now anyway. What the copper producers did was jack their prices, claiming bull$it reasons,  so high that scrap prices were so high that the idiots ... might be safe to say crack heads but I prefer the lazy ones, wher  they were even trying to cut copper out of live  high line wires. More that one were caught stone cold dead hanging off a live pole. Those days are (hopefully ) gone as the copper producers slit their own  throat and the plastics OEMs stepped up their game to compete. Sadly the plastic producers stepped up their game by raising ther products  just under copper claiming less labor to install therby raising the over all cost to.... you guessed it ...Joe consumer. 

[JCM 9,130]

This mornings small project was to clean up and vacuum the area around the Boiler. This was installed 10 years ago to replace the original oil fired boiler that was at the other end of the basement. I was looking to upgrade the system to LP so as to change the appliances from electric to LP as well and remove the 275 gallon oil tank. Do any of you who work in the trades ever have a project that you either have not 100% finished and or never started in your own home that is related to your trade. If you look at the right hand side of the row of circulators there is one that is not connected, that will someday hopefully go to an HTP/ Super Stor 40 or 60 gallon indirect hot water heater. As well behind that there are 2 -   3/4'' copper lines , a hot and cold for domestic water to tank. I can't take credit for the wiring job that was done by a childhood friend and neighbor. These pics were taken this morning as I never had any for this project.    Have a great Sunday all.

[Handy Don 12,116]

Five active zones! 

Not my trade, but still have a sealed off 8" duct on my return air plenum that I intended to connect to a fresh air inlet--37 years ago.

[JCM 9,130]

This past Thursdays project was to get this in the basement and all associated trim/ parts and pieces for a heating system replacement for a very good and 20 plus year customer. We had to travel 70' plus over pea stone with this 635 lb Cast Iron block using 2 full sheets and 1 half sheet of plywood as a base for the pallet jack and hand truck. The driver was great, usually tailgate delivery with most Company's when they see what it would take to get it close to the cellar entrance with something of this weight and condition of the route with its turns and base. Also had help with a good friend of mine assisting. This is the first Viessmann oil fired boiler I have installed but have used their Gas boilers. This brand was recommended by the customer. I was impressed with the smoothness of the cast iron as compared to American made boilers. This unit will be supplying heat to 28 cast iron radiators and an 80 gallon HTP super stor indirect H/W tank supplying 4 1/2 baths, kitchen with pantry sink and laundry room. Should be a nice project and will be done in stages as not to disrupt heat or hot water for the owner. Will post some pictures as progress goes forward.

[Handy Don 12,116]

Impressive chunk of equipment to be moving around.

Will this thing have an insulated jacket around it once it's all connected?

[JCM 9,130]

Yes Don it does. I will get some pics on here eventually. I still have phase 2 of the project to start. It involves separating 28 cast iron radiators into 4 zones which at present there are only 2 thermostats that are both on the first floor.Old 1800's very large home. Good mid winter project . @Handy Don

[WHX?? 48,743]

That block reminds me of one commercial job I did once Plunge. All the sections were shipped loose so I had to press them together on site with rented HY presses from the disrributer. Big honkin Burnhams with gas power burners  that were going to run at 60 psi due to the 10 stories of the building. I'm sure was worried about gettin them push nipples to seat without leaking. 

Oil??? Yah i know oil is still a big thing in your neck of the woods but better you than me! Couldn't talk the customer into a  couple of cascaded mod cons? 

[JCM 9,130]

My customer asked for a Viessmann. His golfing buddy had one installed in his home and recommended that. I purchased the iron with a riello burner. Hope to finish that project up now that everything is valved off and labeled. May wait until Spring. Nice that the way I set it up no more bleeding the air out of 28 radiators. @WHX??