Steering Spindle Thrust Bearing (Washer)

[Back on a horse 55]

I noticed where the axle sits down on the steering spindle there is no washer called out on the bottom in the parts list.  Has anyone tried installing an oil (and/or PTFE) embedded washer between the steering spindle and the axle?  I see they are available for 3/4" shafts with O.D. of 1.25" and thickness of 1/16".  The iron/copper ones will support 3,000 pounds at 60 rpm. while the bronze will support around 1,500 pounds at 60 rpm.  Less than 2 bucks each ... I think I will buy a couple and see if they will fit in there when I have some time ... might be a while though.

[JoeM 7,874]

I always wanted to try a needle-roller thrust bearing like the 520's use. I know McMaster Carr sells the 3/4" and washers pretty cheap, but I never checked the spindles to see if there is enough room after installing. Need a little more than a 1/8 inch.

That washer is thinner and sounds like it has potential, let us know it steers better.

[ebinmaine 68,887]

I've not tried it personally. I've seen in threads on improving steering that others have done it with the roller bearing type.

You'll likely need to make a little room for it by grinding off a bit of metal.

 

I may very well try the rollers on the Colossus build. What with the large twin engine, and the battery/fuel tank all being out front ... it'll be a heavy fronted rig. Great for traction and pulling. Easier steering would be a huge bonus.

 

 

[JoeM 7,874]

Good point about grinding a little if necessary. @ebinmaine I got one in the barn working on it and I am going to take a look see today. Maybe my next order to MMC I will get me some.

 

[peter lena 8,877]

what ever you choose , don,t forget to add some lucas red and tacky grease to the frictional areas , for  extended smooth operation, jmoo, pete 

[pfrederi 18,000]

I used the oilite bearing it fit with out any grinding.  I also used the radial needle but had to grind the axle. The needle one has not been used that much I am not sure how long it will last as lubrication is an issue. You have to use the hardened washers above and below the needle bearing (the hardened needles would damage the axle housing and spindle).  The grease you pump into the spindle housing comes down but stops at the top washer it can't really get around it into the needle.

[pacer 3,174]

Gotta love those things!

 

Some? of the D's have that on them - maybe the later models? cause I had a couple that didnt, but I added them. Never tried it on the other models but should be a good mod - some of these horses steer like a tank!

 

Theres a mod out to add a needle to the Ross steering box, which I've done on a couple. I used to buy and refurd old metal lathes and the cross feeds were begging to have a needle bearing added.

 

4 minutes ago, pfrederi said:

You have to use the hardened washers above and below the needle bearing (the hardened needles would damage the axle housing and spindle).  The grease you pump into the spindle housing comes down but stops at the top washer it can't really get around it into the needle

 

This is a very valid point, DO use the washers! Would think you could use a Dremel, or similar and grind a 'notch' in the washer and get the grease to go in......

[ebinmaine 68,887]

23 minutes ago, MrOiluj52 said:

Good point about grinding a little if necessary. @ebinmaine I got one in the barn working on it and I am going to take a look see today. Maybe my next order to MMC I will get me some.

 

Please do be sure to share some pics and information as you're working on that.

[ronhatch 406]

  Because the stock spindles on my C-101 were so worn out because the PO didn't know what a grease gun was, I was forced to replace them. I had a nice set  of spindles which included wheels/tires from a M-M/Ford/Jacobson (all the same tractor) that fit, but had a longer shaft that fits into the axle. So, instead of thrust needle bearings, I was able to use thrust BALL bearings.  Unfortunately, the new tires were wider then the stock tires so I think the tires and the thrust ball bearing canceled each other out. I ended up replacing the small 12"/13" steering wheel with a 15" wheel, which helped but, IMHO still steers hard compared to my 867 WH and 4016 Case.   

[oliver2-44 9,929]

1 hour ago, pacer said:

Theres a mod out to add a needle to the Ross steering box, which I've done on a couple. I used to buy and refurd old metal lathes and the cross feeds were begging to have a needle bearing added.

 

@pacer I'd appreciate if you could share a little more info, or point us to info about the Ross Steering Box needle bearing mod.  I have  a WH 953 and a Case 180 that need there Ross Steering Boxes rebuilt. 

[pacer 3,174]

38 minutes ago, oliver2-44 said:

could share a little more info, or point us to info about the Ross Steering Box

 

Oliver, I'll send you a PM so we wont hijack this post......

[Lee1977 6,872]

34 minutes ago, pacer said:

 

Oliver, I'll send you a PM so we wont hijack this post......

High Jack it. Every one want's to know even if they don't have a Ross Steering Box. The tread is about easier steering.

 

For better steering put 4 ply tires on the front. I have them on all my Wheel Horse except the one with 6 ply. Worn tie rods makes for bad steering. I have change all mine to Heims Joints.  Shimming the fan gear to the proper spacing also improves steering.  If it's a late model with a worn bushing in the steering tower that needs to be fixed  for better steering.  It all has to work together for better steering.

[Back on a horse 55]

Yes, no worries on the hijack as it is about better steering.  The McMaster Carr needle roller bearings seem like trouble to me ... seem like a little dirt magnet since there is no seal.

[JoeM 7,874]

On ‎11‎/‎23‎/‎2019 at 9:49 AM, ebinmaine said:

Please do be sure to share some pics and information as you're working on that

Really not working on it now EB, but took some time to see what the spacing was in the spindle to axle fit. Measured the gap using drill bits and the largest bit that would go in the gap 1/16".

Looks like there is not enough room on the top of the spindle shaft to move the retainer. Best to remove some metal off the top of the axle to allow the shaft to drop down lower. I figured using the thinnest washers with the bearing 9/64" space is needed.

There is a lot of meat on the top so removing metal would not be an issue.

[ebinmaine 68,887]

3 minutes ago, MrOiluj52 said:

Really not working on it now EB, but took some time to see what the spacing was in the spindle to axle fit. Measured the gap using drill bits and the largest bit that would go in the gap 1/16".

Looks like there is not enough room on the top of the spindle shaft to move the retainer. Best to remove some metal off the top of the axle to allow the shaft to drop down lower. I figured using the thinnest washers with the bearing 9/64" space is needed.

There is a lot of meat on the top so removing metal would not be an issue.

I hadn't taken any measurements like you but was noticing the meat 'n metal.

 

16 hours ago, Back on a horse said:

. seem like a little dirt magnet since there is no seal

Left uncovered I'd agree.

A flexible cap sort of like the wheel hub caps can be used.

 

[JoeM 7,874]

56 minutes ago, ebinmaine said:

. seem like a little dirt magnet since there is no seal

The bearing goes on the bottom and that would be tough to seal. The 520's been using these all along. No issues that I have seen. I would think the bearing and the backer washers would be a better alternative than wearing the spindle metal to axle metal. Those washers are as hard as wood pecker lips!

One thought I had was to install an O-ring of sorts on the top with a washer to compress......maybe forcing the grease down and out in place of up and out. Just thinking.

[cleat 6,723]

Every time I get a 520 and take the front end apart I find that little bearing quite gummed up.

 

A good cleaning with brake cleaner then repack with grease and good to go.

 

Never seen a bad one yet.

 

I think they all should have had one from the start. Oh well, we can always upgrade

 

[prondzy 3,883]

Just did it in my 856, works just fine

[Back on a horse 55]

Which one did you get Prondzy?

[prondzy 3,883]

I just used 3/4 thrust bushings I picked up from the local hardware store. Pretty common.

[ronhatch 406]

IMO, I think a couple of Teflon flat washers would be just as good as a needle bearing without the 'gumming up' issue.   The other day I pulled the spindles out of the axle of my 4016 Case for a good cleaning and inspection. After cleaning, the needle bearings that I install about 10 years ago looked fine. I repacked them with Sticky grease and re-assembled. I used the tractor yesterday and it  steered great. 

[Warning:Unsupervised 82]

On 11/23/2019 at 9:40 AM, ronhatch said:

  Because the stock spindles on my C-101 were so worn out because the PO didn't know what a grease gun was, I was forced to replace them. I had a nice set  of spindles which included wheels/tires from a M-M/Ford/Jacobson (all the same tractor) that fit, but had a longer shaft that fits into the axle. So, instead of thrust needle bearings, I was able to use thrust BALL bearings.  Unfortunately, the new tires were wider then the stock tires so I think the tires and the thrust ball bearing canceled each other out. I ended up replacing the small 12"/13" steering wheel with a 15" wheel, which helped but, IMHO still steers hard compared to my 867 WH and 4016 Case.   

If a Wheel Horse tractors steering is stiff even after greased check the slop in its steering gear/box. Theres a sleeve bushing inside the steering that wears out over time. 

That small sleeve was mostly gone on my 414-8 when I got it due to not being greased enough that made it a real pita to steer.

 I put narrow 4.00 tri-rib tires on front and that helped out tremendously but it was still a little stiff turning. No biggy though,  but later on I noticed it would stick so I had to manually turn my steering wheel back after every turn so I decided to try & make some adjustments to my steering gears. Thats when I noticed all the slop it really had in the steering gears. Simply installing another new steering sleeve bushing fixed that & made it feel like power steering especially with narrow tri's on its front. I really didnt realize how hard it was to steer till it wasn't!..lol

  With a worn out sleeve the gear angles dont align correctly & it adds too much pressure on the gears creating that harder steering on one.

 With several busted discs in my neck hard steering isnt something I can handle very well these days.

 But as they say, getting old sure aint for sissys..lol

Something to look into if its still steering hard...Peace