Ignition switch problems

[Bryced2188 2]

I have a 1998 Toro wheel horse 312-8, model number 73428 and serial number 8900268. I can jump solenoid or hook power straight to the battery but it will not start with the key switch. When I turn the key the lights will come on and you hear the relay click so I'm getting power to the relay but I think it is stopping there. I have tested both relays and They are good and replaced the solenoid. I can't seem to find the right ignition switch for the tractor. The posts on mine are labeled I believe G,M,S,A and one that I can't read or isn't marked. The parts diagram on line gives me part number 92-6785, but when I look it up all the posts are marked different. The key switch didn't work when I bought the tractor and I tried a basic Indak switch from AutoZone with no luck but the posts are marked different on it as well. Is there two different switches for this model or Is it possible that the ignition switch was switched out before and it's the wrong one in it now? The current switch has a burnt spot on the A post as well as the connector plug on the wiring harness has been burnt and I had to put a spade connector on the wire for the A post. Any wiring diagram that I have found doesn't have the posts that match my switch either. Does anyone have any info on the switch or a different one that would work, and also a wiring diagram for no my specific model as everyone I find is for a 91-97 model year. Thanks

[ZXT 2,401]

Welcome, Bryce! Glad to have you

 

I don't own your particular model, but as long as the ignition switch you purchased has the posts labeled the same (not necessarily in the same spot), you can re-pin your connector to match up to the switch. Whatever you do, don't put a switch in it that has an "I" post on it; that is for a tractor with a battery ignition. 

 

I will do some research on the correct switch for your tractor and will post back what I find! Someone will likely be along before that telling you exactly what you need. 

[Bryced2188 2]

13 minutes ago, ZXT said:

Welcome, Bryce! Glad to have you

 

I don't own your particular model, but as long as the ignition switch you purchased has the posts labeled the same (not necessarily in the same spot), you can re-pin your connector to match up to the switch. Whatever you do, don't put a switch in it that has an "I" post on it; that is for a tractor with a battery ignition. 

 

I will do some research on the correct switch for your tractor and will post back what I find! Someone will likely be along before that telling you exactly what you need. 

Thanks. Appreciate any help

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 11,153]

92-6785 is the correct switch and it is for battery ignition with a twist. This switch controls a kill relay to control the magneto ignition.

Click on the picture. On the next page click on the pictures again. Two of them describe the switch functions so you can test it.

Good diagrams for each circuit

Here is everything we have on your model and they come up in no particular order so look through them all.

One there on the clutch and seat switches may be of interest. The clutch switch is in the starter circuit.

https://www.wheelhorseforum.com/search/?&q=1998 312-8&type=downloads_file&search_and_or=or

 

Garry

[ZXT 2,401]

16 minutes ago, gwest_ca said:

92-6785 is the correct switch and it is for battery ignition with a twist. This switch controls a kill relay to control the magneto ignition.

Click on the picture. On the next page click on the pictures again. Two of them describe the switch functions so you can test it.

 

 

Thanks for setting me straight, Garry! I appreciate it. I hate giving bad info but I love learning from my mistakes.

 

With the info Garry posted, it's not surprising that it won't crank. I would definitely purchase the correct ignition switch for the tractor - an ignition switch with an "M" will never work; you will in fact need one with an "I". I was unaware how those tractors killed the ignition. I assumed it was like older models but I was wrong. 

 

Do you own a digital multi meter? Not knowing what has been done in the past, it would be wise to check out how the connector is pinned to verify that it is actually correct. Plugging in a switch with it pinned incorrectly could cause damage.

Edited October 29, 2019 by ZXT

[Macwrench 133]

1 hour ago, Bryced2188 said:

I have a 1998 Toro wheel horse 312-8, model number 73428 and serial number 8900268. I can jump solenoid or hook power straight to the battery but it will not start with the key switch. When I turn the key the lights will come on and you hear the relay click so I'm getting power to the relay but I think it is stopping there. 

If you hear the start relay clicking, then it isn't the ignition switch.  I would suspect the relay.  The multimeter is your friend.  You are going to have to follow the power and see where it ends.  Also, you may start with just cleaning all the connectors really good with a brass brush and some contact cleaner.  But I really suspect the switch may not fix your issue.

[Bryced2188 2]

Thanks for the info ZXT and Garry. I own a few multi meters and now that I have a diagram it will be easier to troubleshoot.I'll dig into it later this week. Mac I put 12 volts to relay and it tested good. Also put a new relay in and same problem. My current switch doesn't have an I post on it and neither does the cheap one that I bought. I'm thinking someone switched the factory one out as the posts on it do not match the wiring schematic. Also I will have to buy another switch regardless. I tore into the one that was on the tractor and junked it in the process. It was in pretty bad shape to begin with inside

Edited October 29, 2019 by Bryced2188

[ZXT 2,401]

3 minutes ago, Macwrench said:

If you hear the start relay clicking, then it isn't the ignition switch.  I would suspect the relay.  The multimeter is your friend.  You are going to have to follow the power and see where it ends.  Also, you may start with just cleaning all the connectors really good with a brass brush and some contact cleaner.  But I really suspect the switch may not fix your issue.

I'm curious if his current switch is the one that came on the tractor or is the generic indak that he bought. It sounds as though he can get the tractor started by jumping across the solenoid. If the switch he has currently has a "M" on it, that would seem impossible. A switch for a typical magneto ignition switch provides ground to ground the magneto out when the key is shut off, and releases ground when turned on. A battery ignition switch (which this tractor apparently uses in conjunction with a relay even though it uses a magneto ignition) provides 12v+ when in the start/run position, and shuts off power when the switch is off. Mixing the two systems would result in smoke. 

 

I also thought that since he heard the relay click that he had the correct ignition switch. Both switches provide the same signal for cranking, but not for ignition. In addition to the incorrect ignition switch being used, he may have an issue with one of the safety switches preventing it from cranking.

[Macwrench 133]

2 minutes ago, ZXT said:

I'm curious if his current switch is the one that came on the tractor or is the generic indak that he bought. It sounds as though he can get the tractor started by jumping across the solenoid. If the switch he has currently has a "M" on it, that would seem impossible. A switch for a typical magneto ignition switch provides ground to ground the magneto out when the key is shut off, and releases ground when turned on. A battery ignition switch (which this tractor apparently uses in conjunction with a relay even though it uses a magneto ignition) provides 12v+ when in the start/run position, and shuts off power when the switch is off. Mixing the two systems would result in smoke. 

 

I also thought that since he heard the relay click that he had the correct ignition switch. Both switches provide the same signal for cranking, but not for ignition. In addition to the incorrect ignition switch being used, he may have an issue with one of the safety switches preventing it from cranking.

Sounds like it starts and runs when he jumps the solenoid, so he must have the correct ignition switch otherwise like you said... he's going to let the smoke out.  And these things run on smoke.  

[953 nut 56,367]

           Unfortunately the majority of the important electrical devices on a  are located near or under the battery and are subject to corrosion as a result.

[Bryced2188 2]

1 hour ago, ZXT said:

I'm curious if his current switch is the one that came on the tractor or is the generic indak that he bought. It sounds as though he can get the tractor started by jumping across the solenoid. If the switch he has currently has a "M" on it, that would seem impossible. A switch for a typical magneto ignition switch provides ground to ground the magneto out when the key is shut off, and releases ground when turned on. A battery ignition switch (which this tractor apparently uses in conjunction with a relay even though it uses a magneto ignition) provides 12v+ when in the start/run position, and shuts off power when the switch is off. Mixing the two systems would result in smoke. 

 

I also thought that since he heard the relay click that he had the correct ignition switch. Both switches provide the same signal for cranking, but not for ignition. In addition to the incorrect ignition switch being used, he may have an issue with one of the safety switches preventing it from cranking.

The key also does not have to be in the on position to jump the solenoid

[ZXT 2,401]

11 minutes ago, Bryced2188 said:

The key also does not have to be in the on position to jump the solenoid

The ignition switch could be non-existent to jump the solenoid. It bypasses it completely.

 

I haven't clarified, but have you had this tractor running? I know you've cranked it by jumping the solenoid, but I'm not sure if you've had it running.

[Bryced2188 2]

15 hours ago, ZXT said:

The ignition switch could be non-existent to jump the solenoid. It bypasses it completely.

 

I haven't clarified, but have you had this tractor running? I know you've cranked it by jumping the solenoid, but I'm not sure if you've had it running.

Never thought of it bypassing it...lol. But yes it runs great. Used it all summer just had to jump the solenoid everytime. Also have to choke it to shut it off as the key switch will not kill it once started

Edited October 30, 2019 by Bryced2188

[N875ED 98]

Bryce:

 

My 2010 Gravely ZT mower had a similar problem...turning the key would get the solenoid to click but not engage the starter. I replaced the starter but still no joy. Turns out a failure mode of these solenoid is poor electrical contact on its internal jumper bar (that the solenoid's magnetic field pulls against). I know this because I took the darn thing apart and it looked OK, but was clearly the culprit. Replacing the solenoid completely eliminated the problem. So, don't assume the clicking solenoid means it is working....that was my mistake.

[Bryced2188 2]

5 hours ago, N875ED said:

Bryce:

 

My 2010 Gravely ZT mower had a similar problem...turning the key would get the solenoid to click but not engage the starter. I replaced the starter but still no joy. Turns out a failure mode of these solenoid is poor electrical contact on its internal jumper bar (that the solenoid's magnetic field pulls against). I know this because I took the darn thing apart and it looked OK, but was clearly the culprit. Replacing the solenoid completely eliminated the problem. So, don't assume the clicking solenoid means it is working....that was my mistake.

I replaced the solenoid and still nothing. Its the relay clicking andbits as if the power is stopping there. I can jump the solenoid and it will start and can put power directly to the starter and it will fire. It also will not shut off with the key switch once it is started.

Edited October 30, 2019 by Bryced2188

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 11,153]

There are 4 relays on this model and most likely they are all the same part number.

2 neutral relays

1 kill relay

1 interlock relay

 

The neutral switch consists of a magnet and reed switch I think with one of them mounted on the shift lever. Have read where they can get knocked out of place.

 

Garry

[biged77 113]

I'm just glad my mid-80s models don't have all these relays.  Looks like you are into some detailed troubleshooting with a volt/ohmmeter if installing the correct ignition switch doesn't do it.  Interlock Relay K2 will energize when the ignition switch is in start but the solenoid will not energize unless the other relays, the neutral switch, the seat switch and the PTO switch are functioning and wired correctly. 

 

Ed

[Bryced2188 2]

Garry and Ed I know the location of 2 of the relays on both sides of the solenoid, any idea where the other ones are. I haven't seen them. And I only tested the 2 by the solenoid. Also the ignition switch that I took off the tractor has a patent number on it. The number is 3497644. Would the factory one be labeled with that patent number?

Edited October 31, 2019 by Bryced2188

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 11,153]

Indak was assigned this patent back in 1970 so the number likely appears on many switches which means nothing to us.

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/3497644.pdf

 

Garry

[biged77 113]

Sorry I don't know the location of the other relay but based on previous posts it may under the battery.  Have you replaced the ignition switch yet with the correct one?  As far as the engine having to be choked the PO may have disconnected or cut the white Mag wire from the engine due to similar problems as the start issue (relays, switch, wiring, etc. keeping the engine from running).  The engine will fire as long as the magneto is not grounded.

 

Ed

[Bryced2188 2]

On 10/31/2019 at 11:17 AM, biged77 said:

Sorry I don't know the location of the other relay but based on previous posts it may under the battery.  Have you replaced the ignition switch yet with the correct one?  As far as the engine having to be choked the PO may have disconnected or cut the white Mag wire from the engine due to similar problems as the start issue (relays, switch, wiring, etc. keeping the engine from running).  The engine will fire as long as the magneto is not grounded.

 

Ed

No I haven't replaced the ignition switch yet. I'm trying to locate one locally, but it's looking like I'm going to have to order one