KT 17 No Spark

[Gas Man 19]

I just bought my first Wheel Horse.  She's a c-175 Automatic. Sounds like I stumbled onto a Crappy example of a Kohler as it has a KT17 series 1. The previous owner said "She was running when I shut her off"  That was around 2010.  So she's been sitting for around 10 years. The fuels system is a total disaster!!  I drained what looked like dark maple syrup from the tank.  I'm thinking about buying an ultra-sonic cleaner from Habor Freight for the carb work.

First - Won't crank

It took a while just to get her to crank ,(I have a tendency to go through the butt hole to work on the tonsils) I checked all of the safety switches (PTO, Seat, Brake) and found them to be good, then found the ignition wire "OFF" the solenoid.  Plugged it in....Cranks great.  

NEXT - No Spark

I have power to the coil when the key is on. 

I pulled the flywheel expecting to check the points...ahhh...none there.

Found a series of very dirty magnets that I suspect make up the charging system.

I cleaned the magnets and put the flywheel back on....No spark.

Then my dog got out and I didn't get back to the shed.  Hoping to get back out there today.

[Gas Man 19]

Update: I found the points and figured out the push rod that opens the points was stuck.  Lubed it up and now the points are working.  I have 12 volts to the hot side of the coil with the key on and intermittent voltage on the other side of the coil (while cranking)  depending on whether or not the points are open.  How do you test the coil?  It is a single unit with 2 spark plug wires coming out of it.  It looks expensive...

[ZXT 2,401]

8 minutes ago, Gas Man said:

Update: I found the points and figured out the push rod that opens the points was stuck.  Lubed it up and now the points are working.  I have 12 volts to the hot side of the coil with the key on and intermittent voltage on the other side of the coil (while cranking)  depending on whether or not the points are open.  How do you test the coil?  It is a single unit with 2 spark plug wires coming out of it.  It looks expensive...

Beat me to it - I was typing going to tell you to clean the points! Did you file them? If they have any oxidation on them, they wont jump spark. If you clean them, you should be able to open the points manually with a screwdriver and see if you have power down there. 

 

Have you pulled a plug out, grounded it (on the side of the plug where the wrench flats are) and cranked it over to see if you have any spark? It's quite possible that the plugs are dead or at least need cleaning. 

 

I've never looked at a KT coil before but I'll look up the procedure. Typically you test from the tower (spark plug lead socket) to one of the posts. I'd clean the points before you dug too far though if you haven't already! 

 

Also, testing the voltage on the other side of the coil as you did won't give you any information. It's always going to look odd on a DMM.

Edited October 20, 2019 by ZXT

[pacer 3,169]

KT's seem to enjoy having their coils for a snack! .Been a while since I researched coils, seems they were pricey (although seems like I saw a recent post that someone found an aftermarket) Some models of Harley coils will work.

 

Pull the plugs and lay them on the block connected, then manually open/close the points, both should spark. Another thing is points are very prone to "glaze" after sitting for a long time, run some fine paper thru them...

 

On that goop in the tank, the only thing I found that would cut it was lacquer thinner/acetone, pour couple cupfuls in and slosh around every little bit. May have to change it out a couple times. I have also had to tie a soaked rag to a stick and mop the bottom some...

 

Edit -- I see ZXT beat me to replying basically saying the same thing.

[ZXT 2,401]

Adding on to that, if you still don't have spark after testing the coil, I'd replace the condenser. They're known to go bad especially after sitting.

 

EDIT: Here's a picture I stole off the web. Should be the same procedure for you but with one extra spark plug wire tower.

Edited October 20, 2019 by ZXT

[pfrederi 17,697]

I find that before in tear into a non working engine especially one of a type i have not worked on before I like to look a t service manual.  Keeps me from pulling flywheels looking for points on a Kohler.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 20, 2019 by pfrederi

[Gas Man 19]

It's been a BUNCH of years since I worked on a "points system" and frankly I have never claimed to be an expert on the matter.  It seems I remember a little blue spark appearing as the points opened each time.  I don't see that on this one...so filing the points might just do it.

 

ZXT posted - Also, testing the voltage on the other side of the coil as you did won't give you any information. It's always going to look odd on a DMM.

I don't under stand.  It seems if I rock the engine in such a way as to open and close the points, a DMM would read    "12 volts"   "0 volts   "12 volts"  etc.???

This should indicate that the points are working...right? 

What does the condenser do?

[Gas Man 19]

pfrederi  -----Thanks a lot!!  This whole manual thing is very cool!!  And your right, pulling the fly wheel on a hunch was a bit stupid, but I found a coffee can full of leaves and nut shells (mice?) under the cover, so it wasn't totally in vane.

 

I'd like to fine a (free) pdf file that includes a shop manual for the whole tractor.  or, will I still need a separate manual for the engine.

[Gas Man 19]

I'd like to FIND

[ZXT 2,401]

9 minutes ago, Gas Man said:

It's been a BUNCH of years since I worked on a "points system" and frankly I have never claimed to be an expert on the matter.  It seems I remember a little blue spark appearing as the points opened each time.  I don't see that on this one...so filing the points might just do it.

 

ZXT posted - Also, testing the voltage on the other side of the coil as you did won't give you any information. It's always going to look odd on a DMM.

I don't under stand.  It seems if I rock the engine in such a way as to open and close the points, a DMM would read    "12 volts"   "0 volts   "12 volts"  etc.???

This should indicate that the points are working...right? 

What does the condenser do?

The condenser keeps the points from burning out - it minimizes the arcing at the points so that they last longer. If it goes bad, you will see arcing at the points when you open and close them manually, but you won't have spark at the plugs. Boggles my mind as well.

 

Seeing that the voltage changes when you turn the engine over leads me to believe that the points are making contact, but maybe not good enough. I don't know the specifics on what the readings should be on the - side of the coil. I just know that most every engine that I've tested the - side on provided different readings. 

 

Clean the points, pull the plugs out and report back if you have spark. If you don't, you might rob a known good spark plug from something else for testing purposes.

Edited October 20, 2019 by ZXT

[lynnmor 7,303]

A condenser is in the ignition system both for the protection of the point contacts AND to cause a more rapid collapse of the magnetic field within the coil.  A bad or mismatched condenser with result in a weak spark, no spark or rapid point wear.  I never replace a condenser when the spark is OK and the points are wearing evenly.  By evenly, I mean that there is no buildup on one and metal loss on the other.

[953 nut 55,156]

6 hours ago, Gas Man said:

Sounds like I stumbled onto a Crappy example of a Kohler as it has a KT17 series 1.

Nothing wrong with a series 1 KT-17 as long as you keep the oil changed and don't operate it on steep grades. Here is a write up on the ignition system.

With a battery ignition system, the ignition points are closed the majority of the time. With the points closed and the ignition switch ON the primary windings of the ignition coil have current flowing through them and are developing a magnetic field in the iron core of the ignition coil. The moment the ignition points open the magnetic field collapses and induces a momentary high voltage pulse in the secondary windings of the coil which goes through the spark plug wire and arcs across the gap of the spark plug. If this occurs in the presence of a compressed fuel/air mixture of the proper ratio an explosion will occur within the cylinder. If this explosion occurs at the proper time in the engine’s cycle there will be pressure applied to the piston forcing it downward on the power stroke. The ignition points will continue to open further after this has occurred. How far they open is immaterial, their work has been done for that cycle of engine operation. What is important is when they open relative to the position of the piston on its compression/power revolution. If it occurs too soon there will be backfiring, too late and there will be a reduction of power. In the case of our Kohler engines the sweet spot is twenty degrees Before Top Dead Center, that is what the “SP” mark on the flywheel is set to). At the moment the points open the condenser quenches the arc across the points extending their life, the rest of the time it just sits there.

[Gas Man 19]

Thanks a lot for your help.  I think I have a bad coil.  Can't get continuity at all

[ZXT 2,401]

23 minutes ago, Gas Man said:

Thanks a lot for your help.  I think I have a bad coil.  Can't get continuity at all

Are you sure your meter is working properly? Even if the coil is bad, filing the points would be an excellent thing to do. If its been sitting that long, they will have some level of buildup on them. I'd file the points, pull a plug out and check for spark as mentioned above. The fact that you are getting power to the - side of the coil tells me that there is a connection inside of it somewhere.

 

If it is actually bad, they can be had for in the $25 range on eBay.

[ebinmaine 67,391]

I put an aftermarket "Harley Davidson" coil on the 23 twin.

Runs great.

 

[Gas Man 19]

20 hours ago, pacer said:

KT's seem to enjoy having their coils for a snack! .Been a while since I researched coils, seems they were pricey (although seems like I saw a recent post that someone found an aftermarket) Some models of Harley coils will work.

 

Pull the plugs and lay them on the block connected, then manually open/close the points, both should spark. Another thing is points are very prone to "glaze" after sitting for a long time, run some fine paper thru them...

 

On that goop in the tank, the only thing I found that would cut it was lacquer thinner/acetone, pour couple cupfuls in and slosh around every little bit. May have to change it out a couple times. I have also had to tie a soaked rag to a stick and mop the bottom some...

 

Edit -- I see ZXT beat me to replying basically saying the same thing.

Acetone did the JOB!!  Thanks

[ZXT 2,401]

@GasMan

 

Ever get it running? If you did, what turned out to be the culprit? We like to hear how things like this turn out!

[Gas Man 19]

Got it running!!  Thanks for everyone's help

[ZXT 2,401]

On 11/24/2019 at 5:32 AM, Gas Man said:

Got it running!!  Thanks for everyone's help

Still curious as to what the issue was!

[Gas Man 19]

Well....I was hoping no one would ask!  Apparently the new plug wires were not going into the coil far enough to make a connection.  In a moment of ...."I'll try anything now".....  I plugged in the old plug wires into the new coil and it fired right up. So I unglued the boots on the new wires and shoved them all the way in to (my 3rd) new coil and I'm off and running (pun intended)

Feeling quite stupid right now!!

 

I got to plow snow withit yesterday!!!  How COOL!!   The plow is a factory model, but only lifts about 2 " off the floor.  I'm planning to drill a new hole or something to get it to lift higher.

[Gas Man 19]

I will never understand why the new coil would not OHM out, but it made it run....

[ZXT 2,401]

On 12/16/2019 at 7:50 AM, Gas Man said:

 

Feeling quite stupid right now!!

 

 

Don't! We all have issues that turn out like that once in a while. It's always the simple things that get you!                                                            

[953 nut 55,156]

On 12/16/2019 at 8:50 AM, Gas Man said:

The plow is a factory model, but only lifts about 2 " off the floor.

You may not have the link in the right hole.See the note on part # 19

[Gas Man 19]

Thanks a LOT Richard!!  This might likely fix it!!

[Gas Man 19]

I guess with hydraulic lift, it would be the same?