The "Colossus" project

[Maxwell-8 4,276]

An old chassis I had from a toro 12-32 was comparable to a wormgear steering, but by giving them tooths a angle, they will give feedback.

[Oldskool 6,644]

I never checked the geometry of a WH front axle but figured there was caster and camber built into it. Hence the self- centering. I guess I just assumed so because I figured they were also built with the correct ackerman geometry

[ebinmaine 67,540]

15 minutes ago, Oldskool said:

I never checked the geometry of a WH front axle but figured there was caster and camber built into it. Hence the self- centering. I guess I just assumed so because I figured they were also built with the correct ackerman geometry

I've looked at it a little. 

Those things are ... Close enough... For a 7 mph top speed.  

 

I added a fair amount of positive camber (wheel tops tilt out) which is supposed to help traction cornering with a tri rib tire. 

 

Ackerman I got as close as I could within the same move.  

[Handy Don 12,232]

50 minutes ago, Oldskool said:

I would assume it's worm and wheel by the design of the housing. I'm not 100% sure. Never had one apart.

 

Aren't most older automotive steering boxes worm and wheel??

Yes, until rack and pinion became common, worm and sector was common, but eventually worms used ball bearings as the thread driving the worm gear.

The critical factor is the friction between the worm and worm gear. If the worm is "fine threaded" the slope of the thread is very flat so force from the teeth of the sector cannot easily cause the worm to rotate. If the worm is more "coarse threaded" then there is more of a slope as the teeth mesh so force from the teeth of the sector can more easily translate into rotating the worm. The ball bearings cut the friction between the "thread" of the worm and the teeth of the worm gear.

Another factor is the cut of the gears. "helical" cut gears are considered "self locking". 

[Bens vintage tractors 1,542]

20 hours ago, ebinmaine said:

Interesting. @Bens vintage tractors has 520-8. Thought his had a straight axle. Perhaps it's Ben's that was swapped, not Kevin's.  

 

No the 520-8s came from factory with the swept axles. 

[R. L. Addison 299]

Know anyone parting out a tractor w/power steering? I saw a D series with the IH system on it and pressure tapped from lift system that my brother built for his wife,

that they said worked perfectly. Do not remember year, but he said it was hardly any problem to put in. It was in the vertical shaft which was similar to C series w/pinion

& fan gear, and couldn't be seen unless you were looking for it.

 

 

[ebinmaine 67,540]

5 hours ago, R. L. Addison said:

tractor w/power steering?

That's a neat idea.  

Not one I'd use on this particular build but it's got me thinking...

I want to put my Mckissick chipper on something and leave it there so it's ready anytime I want it.  

That chipper is HEAVY.  Power steering would be neat on an old C-160.  

 

 

[wallfish 17,000]

11 hours ago, ebinmaine said:

A Big part of me appreciates the small movement given that setup.

But you will definitely loose some precision steering. Little RJ58 steering is directly connected to the steering wheel and it's takes some getting used to for not over steering just on flat ground as it's quick. Running in rough terrain would be a huge PITA plus the feedback from the wheels hitting stuff might be an issue.

BUT, what about changing the steering wheel to handle bars? Riding it like an ATV will give you precise control and the position of your arms and hands along with the added leverage of handle bars will give you the power to turn it and easily control the feedback of the rough terrain. You already know how to ride a bike so...  Can you imagine trying to ride a bike with a steering wheel on it instead of handle bars?

This is something I'm going to use on 1/2 built project that's been idle for a few years. A Wheel Horse ATV. You can use the triangle piece on the bottom of the steering shaft which the tie rods connect to for making some adjustments. Relocating the connection points for the tie rods closer to or away from the shaft will change the turn of the bars and the torque required to turn. Multiple hole locations can make it adjustable until it's dialed in to where you like it.

 

[ebinmaine 67,540]

3 minutes ago, wallfish said:

what about changing the steering wheel to handle bars? Riding it like an ATV will give you precise control and the position of your arms and hands along with the added leverage of handle bars will give you the power to turn it and easily control the feedback of the rough terrain

 

I'd had that thought as well. I'll stick with the round steering wheel because that's the look I want ...but.... Check out the "wheel" I'm using...

 

Note that it has cross bars instead of a 3 point bar.  Those cross bars are alot like a handle bar aren't they?

 

 

 

 

 

The black one is a 13" Wheelhorse wheel for size reference. 

 

The metal wheel is 20". 

 

 

 

35 minutes ago, wallfish said:

You can use the triangle piece on the bottom of the steering shaft which the tie rods connect to for making some adjustments. Relocating the connection points for the tie rods closer to or away from the shaft will change the turn of the bars and the torque required to turn

 

You and I are already on the same page there too.  

One of the reasons I chose the particular steering set-up I did of the several I had is because in the past someone had welded an extension to the end of the triangle. The tie rods connect about 1" further away from shaft centerline. That'll also help.  

 

[ranger 1,750]

13 hours ago, ebinmaine said:

 

Good information there. 

 

The rough terrain here means it won't matter to me if the steering doesn't return... 

That's certainly something to be considered by most though.  

 

One benefit with a straight cut worm wheel is, zero chance of a sprained/broken wrist if the steering tries to kick back, because it won’t be able to!

[kpinnc 12,065]

15 hours ago, ebinmaine said:

That chipper is HEAVY.  Power steering would be neat on an old C-160.  

 

 

There was a thread here some time back about an aftermarket option for power steering. I've also seen folks use an orbital valve like what came in JD 4 wheel steering models, and a standard WH hydraulic cylinder. Seems like there were 5 port orbital valves that were preferred. 

[Handy Don 12,232]

520lxi, JD 420, and JD 425 (and others I'm sure) had power steering, if you are looking for components. Not sure if was pure hydraulic or a linkage with power assist.

Another source might be marine applications. Lots of boats use push-pull cable systems and some use hydraulic (bi-directional pump at the wheel and cylinder actuator at the outboard or rudder).

[ebinmaine 67,540]

1 hour ago, Handy Don said:

520lxi, JD 420, and JD 425 (and others I'm sure) had power steering, if you are looking for components. Not sure if was pure hydraulic or a linkage with power assist.

Another source might be marine applications. Lots of boats use push-pull cable systems and some use hydraulic (bi-directional pump at the wheel and cylinder actuator at the outboard or rudder).

I appreciate the info Don.  

I'm not looking for Power steering so much as for the appropriate gearing. 

 

[cafoose 3,355]

I'd love power steering on this GT-14(I did paint the weight box Regal Red after this pic ):

GT-14

[ebinmaine 67,540]

5 minutes ago, cafoose said:

this GT-14

Nice looking rig!

[kpinnc 12,065]

Found the old thread. From back in 2012! Has the factory power steering kit, and has a few custom jobs in there for inspiration!

 

https://www.wheelhorseforum.com/topic/36744-toro-kit-for-power-steering-on-a-520h/

[ebinmaine 67,540]

6 hours ago, kpinnc said:

Found the old thread. From back in 2012! Has the factory power steering kit, and has a few custom jobs in there for inspiration!

 

https://www.wheelhorseforum.com/topic/36744-toro-kit-for-power-steering-on-a-520h/

Now THAT is an interesting thread. 

I'd be particularly interested in a gear reduction system if it could be done inexpensively. 

 

 

Thanks for posting it here!

 

[ebinmaine 67,540]

Still not sure which way I'll go yet with the steering. 

Some great ideas here folks. 

 

Just wanted to say I appreciate them.  

 

 

[ranger 1,750]

23 hours ago, ebinmaine said:

I appreciate the info Don.  

I'm not looking for Power steering so much as for the appropriate gearing. 

 

Just a quick, (Terrible sketch), of one way of fabricating a reduction gear assembly. The lower shaft can turn inside the upper shaft by fitting a “spigot” bearing or bush, as on a transmission / engine connection. The upper “shaft could be a suitable size piece of tube with steering wheel attached. The gears could run in bearings/bushes fitted to the mounting plates, which can then be assembled using appropriate spacers and bolts and nuts. Assembly then bolted to underside of dash if there is room.

 

Doug.

[Maxwell-8 4,276]

You are going to went some steering aids.

Just tried turning my C141D with an equally heavy engine of 190lbs. and steering when not moving is a work out! let me tell you.

[ebinmaine 67,540]

8 minutes ago, Maxwell-8 said:

You are going to went some steering aids.

Just tried turning my C141D with an equally heavy engine of 190lbs. and steering when not moving is a work out! let me tell you.

 

I agree.

 

Don't forget though that I have needle bearings in the front spindles, tri rib 22" diameter tires and also a very large steering wheel.

 

[wallfish 17,000]

23 hours ago, ebinmaine said:

I'd be particularly interested in a gear reduction system if it could be done inexpensively.

Just think'n out loud  and throwing $&!T against the wall to what sticks or give some more ideas

What about using the 6:1 gear reduction from an engine? You would need the cut off gear end of the crankshaft to weld onto your steering shaft and make a bearing plate or scavenge and cut the engine block. Nice strong gearing with little play in it.

I had one around here somewhere off a K91 which you can have if I can find it. 3/4 shaft output. The crankshaft should be around here somewhere too but you would need to make a bearing plate. 4 bolt flange bearing on a flat piece of steel and maybe a lock collar or 2 to keep the shaft in position.

Or that 2:1 steering quickener in reverse. Or, double them up to go 4:1

 

Ranger's idea could work and possibly scavenge transmission gears to make them work. Heck, make your steering shiftable from high to low responsiveness! That would be COOL and certainly something different. Just don't accidentally knock it into neutral !!!!!

[ebinmaine 67,540]

5 minutes ago, wallfish said:

What about using

 

THE 6:1 GEAR REDUCTION FROM AN ENGINE?

A. 

 

You would need the cut off gear end of the crankshaft to weld onto your steering shaft and make a bearing plate or scavenge and cut the engine block. Nice strong gearing with little play in it.

I had one around here somewhere off a K91 which

 

YOU CAN HAVE IF I CAN FIND IT.

B. 

 

3/4 shaft output. The crankshaft should be around here somewhere too but you would need to make a bearing plate. 4 bolt flange bearing on a flat piece of steel and maybe a lock collar or 2 to keep the shaft in position.

 

Or that 2:1 steering quickener in reverse. Or, double them up to go 4:1

C. 

 

 

Ranger's idea could work and possibly

 

SCAVENGE TRANSMISSION GEARS

D. 

 

 

 to make them work. Heck, make your steering shiftable from high to low responsiveness! That would be COOL and certainly something different. Just

 

don't accidentally knock it into neutral !!!!!

E. 

 

 

A and B:  THAT is a neat idea and if you can find it without too much trouble please let me know!!

 

C.    I like that idea but I'd be back into the $300+ range by the time I bought 2 quickeners and associated u-joints. 

 

 

D. @Oldskool Mike and I had chatted about that. Could be a viable option.  

 

 

E. Neutral no steer is  something I hadn't considered. 

Thank you for bringing it up!!

 

 

Still might be cool to have multiple gears as you and  Mike both said.  

[Lee1977 6,663]

19 hours ago, ebinmaine said:

 

I agree.

 

Don't forget though that I have needle bearings in the front spindles, tri rib 22" diameter tires and also a very large steering wheel.

 

With that big steering wheel the only thing you need to worry about is stripping the steering gears.  With the 13" wheel and 400x8 tri-ribs I can slip the gears turning sharp, just trying the get the little extra to clear something.

[ebinmaine 67,540]

6 minutes ago, Lee1977 said:

With that big steering wheel the only thing you need to worry about is stripping the steering gears.  With the 13" wheel and 400x8 tri-ribs I can slip the gears turning sharp, just trying the get the little extra to clear something.

Absolutely agreed. 

That's exactly why I'm changing to something more substantial like u-joints.  

 

If I'm trying to latch onto this beast and steer on our terrain I don't want steering slippage/breakage to be a thought.