1971 wheel horse charger 12 automatic

[upstateyankee50 59]

as most members know that last week i took the 3 hour plus one way to the Kansas city Kansas area and bought a 1971 charger 12 with the original hub caps and the seat; well after a week now i am not having any luck to get it started as there is no spark ;at one time i did have sparks off the coil but not off the plug and i have tried everything but still nothing sure the motor will turn over ;and there is compression which is good but during my search here i have found out that this 12 horse does not have points which i noticed ;instead it has the break-less ignition and really i do not have a clue how to check it or figure out how to get spark ' i sure would like to hear this thing run but again i am at odds as to what to do;so i sure would appreciate any thoughts here ;

[ebinmaine 69,710]

Those were only around in that form for the Early 70s that I'm aware of.

@pfrederi

@953 nut

Might be able to help you out with that.

 

 

It's possible to change that engine to a points/battery ignition if you determine your system is fried.

 

[Pullstart 63,529]

3 hours ago, ebinmaine said:

Those were only around in that form for the Early 70s that I'm aware of.

@pfrederi

@953 nut

Might be able to help you out with that.

 

 

 

 

That’s what I was thinking...  

[Kenneth R Cluley 567]

Thread on this site for conversion to points. Brian Miller site has a lot of information for testing components and explaining system. I changed my 69 Charger over to points. Not that difficult and about $40 used parts. 

[richmondred01 2,280]

The coil and trigger on these first generation electric ignitions are hard to come by.

You will find that all the holes are present for the points/ breaker assembly. There’s a plug in the hole for the plunger which can be removed with a punch.

From there, it’s a easy swap to convert to a point, coil and condenser system. I’ve converted several because of the cost of the electronic ignition. 

 

[pfrederi 18,180]

There are two parts to the breakerless sysytem.  The coil and the trigger.  Either one can fail.  coils can be had easier than triggers.  The Kohler service manual is your friend it has diagnostic tests for each part.

 

 

 

[upstate yank 219]

6 hours ago, ebinmaine said:

Those were only around in that form for the Early 70s that I'm aware of.

@pfrederi

@953 nut

Might be able to help you out with that.

 

 

It's possible to change that engine to a points/battery ignition if you determine your system is fried.

 

thanks for the feed back ;it always something with these oldies ;i guess i will have to change over to the coil and points 

[upstate yank 219]

50 minutes ago, pfrederi said:

There are two parts to the breakerless sysytem.  The coil and the trigger.  Either one can fail.  coils can be had easier than triggers.  The Kohler service manual is your friend it has diagnostic tests for each part.

 

 

 

thanks for the feed back and i will check it out ;always something with these oldies ;

[upstate yank 219]

57 minutes ago, richmondred01 said:

The coil and trigger on these first generation electric ignitions are hard to come by.

You will find that all the holes are present for the points/ breaker assembly. There’s a plug in the hole for the plunger which can be removed with a punch.

From there, it’s a easy swap to convert to a point, coil and condenser system. I’ve converted several because of the cost of the electronic ignition. 

 

thanks for the feed back and it seems that is the only way to go ;heck the seller told me the motor runs well it seems people will tell you most anything to sell but heck in time it will be changed over ;thanks again

[upstate yank 219]

59 minutes ago, richmondred01 said:

The coil and trigger on these first generation electric ignitions are hard to come by.

You will find that all the holes are present for the points/ breaker assembly. There’s a plug in the hole for the plunger which can be removed with a punch.

From there, it’s a easy swap to convert to a point, coil and condenser system. I’ve converted several because of the cost of the electronic ignition. 

 

thanks for the feed back and it seems that is the only way to get it to start ;at times we need to do what we have to ' thanks 

[upstate yank 219]

1 hour ago, Kenneth R Cluley said:

Thread on this site for conversion to points. Brian Miller site has a lot of information for testing components and explaining system. I changed my 69 Charger over to points. Not that difficult and about $40 used parts. 

thanks for the feed back; it seems that is the only way to go now as trying to find another one would be like looking for a needle in a hay stack ;thanks 

[upstate yank 219]

6 hours ago, ebinmaine said:

Those were only around in that form for the Early 70s that I'm aware of.

@pfrederi

@953 nut

Might be able to help you out with that.

 

 

It's possible to change that engine to a points/battery ignition if you determine your system is fried.

 

thanks for the feed back and yep i think it is fried as at first i used a test light on the wire going to the bottom and it did light up but later on nothing ;always something with these oldies but in time it will fire up thanks 

[upstate yank 219]

1 hour ago, pfrederi said:

There are two parts to the breakerless sysytem.  The coil and the trigger.  Either one can fail.  coils can be had easier than triggers.  The Kohler service manual is your friend it has diagnostic tests for each part.

 

 

thanks i will have to download this file and read on it 

 

[upstate yank 219]

On 8/29/2019 at 3:20 AM, ebinmaine said:

Those were only around in that form for the Early 70s that I'm aware of.

@pfrederi

@953 nut

Might be able to help you out with that.

 

 

It's possible to change that engine to a points/battery ignition if you determine your system is fried.

 

thanks for the reply and yep i think it is fried as today i removed the fly wheel cover ;cleaned the connections and as the seller told me to clean the fly wheel with sand paper which i thought was really odd but i used my drill with a wire wheel the teeth were some what rusted but i cleaned the whole thing then i cleaned the wire connections then used a test light ;after starting the motor i checked each connection with the light and there was no power to any thing ;odd again the seller did tell me the motor ran fine but again how can that be if i can't get it to run sure it will turn over but still no spark ;but we all know most sellers will say anything to make a quick buck but still with the caps and the seat it was worth the  3 plus hour drive plus and back to get it ;so now i am not really sure what to do with it ;i would like to stay with this type as i wouldn't really know where to start to change it to a coil and points ;

[upstate yank 219]

On 8/29/2019 at 8:46 AM, pfrederi said:

There are two parts to the breakerless sysytem.  The coil and the trigger.  Either one can fail.  coils can be had easier than triggers.  The Kohler service manual is your friend it has diagnostic tests for each part.

 

 

thanks for the reply and i am sure that points and a coil is the way to go ;but really i wouldn't know where to to start 'sad that that most sellers will say anything to make a fast buck 'but he told me it would run and really that day i picked it up i should had asked to hear it run but then i noticed both cables were so rusted it wouldn't anyways plus no key ;but still i think for the 3 plus hours to get there and the same coming back for the price i did good as the hub caps and the seat were worth that'

so what i did today was to remove the fly wheel cover check the connections on the item which i cleaned ;the seller told me to clean the fly wheel with sand paper so i used my drill with a wire brush ;then i hooked up a test light then spun the motor over and check to see if the test light would light up on the 2 wires ;but nothing happened so i am certain the thing is fried ;then thinking after wards why were all of the tins off the motor that should had told me something was wrong but i am the type of guy that likes to take others for there word ;it seems we all learn after time not to trust anyone'there is a guy who does small engine repair as i have used him before and just maybe he can help me ;again thanks and have a sage and happy holiday 

 

[richmondred01 2,280]

It may not be his fault. Those early electronic ignitions failed at the drop of a hat. It may be running one day and the next day not so much.

 

1st check and make sure you have the holes predrilled and treaded for the points bracket, cover, and plunger. 

If so, you will need the following:

point bracket, points, philster head screws for the bracket and cover, wire for points to coil, point plunger rod, cover gasket, coil, coil bracket, condenser, spark plug wire.

You will need a punch to remove the cap for the plunger and the pan needs to be removed to catch the cap so it’s not floating around in your pan/block.

you may also want a new pan gasket. 

PM me if you need the parts. I have good used parts that will fit the bill.

If you were closer we could do the swap in 30 minutes in my shop. It’s a easy job.

 

 

Edited September 2, 2019 by richmondred01

[upstate yank 219]

21 minutes ago, richmondred01 said:

It may not be his fault. Those early electronic ignitions failed at the drop of a hat. It may be running one day and the next day not so much.

 

1st check and make sure you have the holes predrilled and treaded for the points bracket, cover, and plunger. 

If so, you will need the following:

point bracket, points, philster head screws for the bracket and cover, wire for points to coil, point plunger rod, cover gasket, coil, coil bracket, condenser, spark plug wire.

You will need a punch to remove the cap for the plunger and the pan needs to be removed to catch the cap so it’s not floating around in your pan/block.

you may also want a new pan gasket. 

PM me if you need the parts. I have good used parts that will fit the bill.

If you were closer we could do the swap in 30 minutes in my shop. It’s a easy job.

 

 

thanks for the feed back and oh for sure i wished we were closer as really i wouldn't know where to start on something like this as all of my other 6 horses has the points and coil ;this breed is so different and i really don;t have a clue here 'but to day;i removed the fly wheel cover cleaned the connections which were 2 ;then as the seller told me to clean the fly wheel odd really but i did with a drill and a wire brush which some of the teeth on the fly wheel were rusted ;then i used a test light after i started the motor the test light did not lite up on any post'so i figure the thing is fried ;sad that some seller would tell you anything to sell an item as i was told the  motor runs ;but heck how could i with no key plus the question to him was does the electric clutch work yes it does but odd again the inner pulley set up was loose as i think it came off the key way so now to try to remove that ;but i am more concerned if the motor will fire up and run the other issue can wait ;as i really do not want to spend a lot of cash on minor things till i know the motor is good ;but again even the 3 hour plus ride to and the same back here i thought the seat which is the original seat plus the caps was worth the ride and the 200 i paid;again thanks for the reply ;have a great holiday 

[ebinmaine 69,710]

I've not personally done that conversion yet but I do have 2 12 horse engines that will become one good one at some point.

They will need that conversion.

 

@953 nut or @pfrederi might be able to share the thread about how to do it.

 

It seems pretty straight forward.

 

 

 

[953 nut 56,742]

@Aldon did a great job of documenting the transition from a "Triggered" ignition system to a battery powered system.

 

[upstate yank 219]

On 8/29/2019 at 3:20 AM, ebinmaine said:

Those were only around in that form for the Early 70s that I'm aware of.

@pfrederi

@953 nut

Might be able to help you out with that.

 

 

It's possible to change that engine to a points/battery ignition if you determine your system is fried.

 

i removed the flywheel cover and checked the wires on the item attached to the side ;i then used a test light to check if the light would show but nothing ;i cleaned the connections and i even used a wire brush on my drill to clean the rust off the fly wheel as the seller mentioned to try but again that didn't work 'the thing is as i have mentioned i never had one of these types and to be honest i wouldn't know which item is bad or even both ;so i ask anyone that understands these types please let me know as i really don't have a clue ;again thanks guys 

[pfrederi 18,180]

Did you download the service manual in post #6 above???  Go to page 75 and test the coil and the trigger.  Both are worth money if they pass the tests.

[ebinmaine 69,710]

25 minutes ago, pfrederi said:

Did you download the service manual in post #6 above???  Go to page 75 and test the coil and the trigger.  Both are worth money if they pass the tests.

@upstate yank

This is the info I was thinking of.

Thanks Paul.

 

[upstate yank 219]

15 hours ago, pfrederi said:

Did you download the service manual in post #6 above???  Go to page 75 and test the coil and the trigger.  Both are worth money if they pass the tests.

thanks for the reply back and yes i did download the service Manuel it seems i will have to read it more closely ;thanks 

[upstate yank 219]

15 hours ago, ebinmaine said:

@upstate yank

This is the info I was thinking of.

Thanks Paul.

 

yep i did download the service Manuel  i will have to read it more closely but i am not sure what that so called flashlight tester is or how to go about making one ;again this is all new to me ;thanks everyone i appreciate it 

[pfrederi 18,180]

Find an old incandescent flashlight tape the batteries together and use the bulb and some wire. A lot of the old bulbs had a slight lip around the top of the base. an alligator clip and wire from it to the battery stand the neg end on that wire. Then another alligator clip to the terminal you are testing of the trigger and touch its wire to the bottom terminal of the bulb.