HY-2 Woes continue

[adsm08 2,022]

The rear line I know is free of obstructions, I had it off earlier today, however I am not certain that the cylinder isn't full of air, and that is an area I could see an issue with it getting air bound. I can't get the forward one off. It looks like it has a brass hex on the end to use a wrench on, but the hex appears to be in bad shape.

 

I did take a few more pictures while inspecting the control valve.

 

 

 

These are the two sides of the valve. There is a hole coming out of the gear chamber that feeds into the bore for this cylinder. You rotate it one way, that big hole through the middle lines up with the gear chamber's discharge hole and a port on the body and sends fluid down a line. Rotate it the other way and it lines up with the other port. If I take the NPT to double flare adapters out of the holes I can stick my fingers down into the bore for the valve.

 

This is where I get confused. Since both directions use the same passage, both sides of the valve need to seal in the bore to not leak pressure internally, and both ports are free, how can it work in one direction and not the other?

Edited September 15, 2019 by adsm08

[wheelhorseman 3,211]

I’m not seeing any pictures???

[Tractorhead 9,064]

Wizzardwhirl...

make it visible..😂

 

 

How and where filled you up the Reservoir on the Pump?

As i understand this system in quick, there must be the hydraulicfluid in for the pump to suck it first time after reworkin.

 

 

 

 

[adsm08 2,022]

OK, so the center hole on this unit is where the rod to hold the fluid reservoir threads in.

 

The red circle I drew is the location of a plug that is for accessing the pressure spring and check ball, which sit in a passage that connects to the gear chamber's discharge. This is where I have been filling it because it is the biggest hole in the case. 

 

The T section of the line I drew is the passage that runs from the gear chamber over to the valve's bore.

[wheelhorseman 3,211]

Do you have a picture of the shaft side of your pump?

[Tractorhead 9,064]

Sorry for the late reply, we went out for a „happy Sunday“ that worth the name.

 

hum, if i see this right, the Pulley shall be right side and the Lever shall be left side with the handle shows to the left.

 

Another question, did you clean that before inserting?

As this pictures look, i never would operate the unit in that envoirement.

i guess you did, but just to clear it.

this pump is normally self sucked, a bit of Oil before mounting internal to the gear or even better screwed together in oilbath

and it must be working.

 

for a short test, you can grab a deeper can with fluid filled, dip the pump, as it is shown on your last pic

and rotate the shaft by an accudrill.

 

the Valve must be tight and the fluid has to come out of the Piston bore.

if rotated slow, there is no pressure behind.

 

are you sure at the gears you placed them right (shaft gear to shaft rotating gear to opposite)?

 

 

 

 

[adsm08 2,022]

2 hours ago, wheelhorseman said:

Do you have a picture of the shaft side of your pump?

 

 

The one with the bracket on is a PU 100. The one without is a PU 100 B, which seems to have only minor differences, like the location of the drain plug.

 

It did require minor honing to get the valve to fit, as the bore was a slightly different diameter.

 

 

 

29 minutes ago, Tractorhead said:

Sorry for the late reply, we went out for a „happy Sunday“ that worth the name.

 

hum, if i see this right, the Pulley shall be right side and the Lever shall be left side with the handle shows to the left.

 

Another question, did you clean that before inserting?

As this pictures look, i never would operate the unit in that envoirement.

i guess you did, but just to clear it.

this pump is normally self sucked, a bit of Oil before mounting internal to the gear or even better screwed together in oilbath

and it must be working.

 

for a short test, you can grab a deeper can with fluid filled, dip the pump, as it is shown on your last pic

and rotate the shaft by an accudrill.

 

the Valve must be tight and the fluid has to come out of the Piston bore.

if rotated slow, there is no pressure behind.

 

are you sure at the gears you placed them right (shaft gear to shaft rotating gear to opposite)?

 

 

 

 

 

 

The pump in that picture was cleaned before use. I sat it in an oil bath for a few days, and cleaned it up with a roloc bristle disc. They are good for use on sensitive metal parts because they are flexible, get into odd spaces, and the bristles are softer than the metal, so they remove patina and rust without scoring sealing surfaces. Its' the only power abrasive that Ford allows for use on engine sealing surfaces. I've also since gone back through and checked that all the fluid passages are clear and not blocked.

 

That picture of it was one Lane sent me before I bought it from him.

Edited September 15, 2019 by adsm08

[Tractorhead 9,064]

Viewed several Picts about that pump.

 

Than i found follow Pict, that i found clearing the fuction of it.

 

As far as i understand now the function of that pump it does follow:

 

The Gear pump itself distributes the Fluid and sent it by 3 possible paths to system back,

dedending on the piston  direction ( the piston seems to be a Valve)

the spring seems to be needed for neutral setting.

 

if piston moved (Rotated over springforce) to forward position, the pressured fluid will passed the opened Valve to forward path.

if piston moved (Rotated over springforce) to reverse position, the pressured fluid will passed the opened valve to reward path.

if piston (valve) is in neutral, the oil will pass thru (maybe) the piston ( where spring is in) back in reservoir.

 

The Ball with spring below seems the suction path with a one way Valve, that the Pump keeps the Fluid in.

at this point i would take a closer look, because if the ball doesn‘t close the path, the oil will drop in reservoir

and no work is possible in wich direction, was anyway.

 

A simple bulletproof construction but has it‘s own rules.

[Tractorhead 9,064]

Are you using you old piston(Valve) i guess no.

and if you using another piston,do you compare that the bores in that pistonvalve are exactly on same position (Height) 

Edited September 15, 2019 by Tractorhead

[adsm08 2,022]

1 minute ago, Tractorhead said:

Are you using you old piston(Valve) i guess no.

and if you using another piston,do you compare that the bores in that pistonvalve are exactly on same position (Height) 

 

I only have one piston. It came from the pump that originally worked but leaked.

 

I have spent hours sitting and comparing the two pumps fully disassembled, and I can't find any real differences in the positions of any of the passages.

 

 

My understanding of the ball and spring is that the likely function as a pressure blow-off. 

 

The ball sits about even with the one screw that is partially hidden by the rod. The other hole in the pump face to the right goes into the passage the spring is in. Without the ball the fluid would flow up there and dump back to the reservoir. With the ball in place fluid is forced out through the control valve. If pressure in the system would rise too high it would overcome the spring, lift the ball off it's seat, and allow fluid to bypass the cylinder and return to the reservoir.

 

[Tractorhead 9,064]

As on you last picts it seems the Pump on the right side has a longer shaft, where piston was in.

so maybe the holes does not fit as they should with originalvalve.

 

 

 

[Tractorhead 9,064]

By the way, as you mentioned Ford ahead,

are you familar with Ecoboost 2,0 engines?

 

i have here a ford Focus ST with 250HP Ecoboost Engine from our Sohn, that spits sometimes an errorcode P0001.

That means Fuel quantity regulator - circuit open

is this regulator a combination together with fuelpump or is it separately?

and where to find

 

 

Added- 

think i found it, the 3 Pin connector on High pressure Fuelpump was not completely clicked.

could be removed without force...

set it again, until Clich and error seems away..

 

Short testdrive with full throttle doesn‘t occurs the error again!

 

end added- 

Edited September 15, 2019 by Tractorhead
Added Text seems error found

[Tractorhead 9,064]

Did you compared the depth of the holes with a calliper?

did you compared them both from Pumpside (inner), where spring sits?

 

Was i have seen by Pistoncomparepics, the look a bit differently.

 

 

[Tractorhead 9,064]

13 hours ago, wheelhorseman said:

I’m not seeing any pictures???

 

Do you have both pistons(Valves) as spare?

and if so, can you please compare both Piston‘s if they fit with the bores?

Thanks in advance

 

 

[adsm08 2,022]

1 hour ago, Tractorhead said:

 

Do you have both pistons(Valves) as spare?

and if so, can you please compare both Piston‘s if they fit with the bores?

Thanks in advance

 

 

 

I don't. I never had the one that originally came with the PU-100-B unit. I'm assuming, that since I had to open that bore up a hair that piston would no longer fit correctly.

 

All the holes around the outside of the cylinder bore are identical though.

[Tractorhead 9,064]

But the Valvepiston you have now inserted, fits closely ?

a way too much space between the surfaces let drop oilpresure aside.

 

i compared the Oilpath about the Shaftpic, and you’re seems to be right.

there be arrows on to see running direction of the Gears, i didn‘t see before.

the oilpath goes in rotation in outerside of the pump.

Where gear releases is intake, where gear closes is outlet.

 

After this, it’s clear it sucks the oil on the small bore sidely the pumpcase.

it will drain the oil to valve, what distributed depending on Valvesetting to a bore path.

 

For a first test i would disassemble the Box again and remove the Valvepiston,

wear latex gloves, and dive the pump in a bucked, filled with oil (fluid) 

and rotate the shaft by an accudrill slowly.

 

inner valve seat, the oil must come out at center bore faced to Pump.

this seems the oilpath to Valve.

 

if so, it‘s up to test with the inserted Valve.

If valve is inserted, you will see, where the oil comes out

but set the Accudrill to lowest speed !!! (i would also suggest use a protection glasses).

just to be sure.

 

 

if you did this in an bucket, you will maybe find your problem.

i would also do the second test without the Spring, just for easier moving the valve.

 

so you can test the paths in both way‘s and have the pump allready bleeded.

 

not sure about the ballvalve, what function it exactly has, maybe an overpressure Valve.

however, if oil spills out of that Valve, you will see it.

that can clear your loss of pressure.

[adsm08 2,022]

OK, so I have been having some issues with the proposed test. Like I don't have a drill the pulley shaft fits in. I was able to spin it up by hand fast enough to get oil  up to the valve bore with the reservoir shaft out. That's a big hole in that passage.

 

I'm starting to wonder if the shaft isn't in tight enough and is causing an internal leak. The port that is getting no flow is on top, and would have to fight gravity as well. The port that works is nearly level with the gear chamber when the pump is installed in the tractor.

[Tractorhead 9,064]

5 hours ago, adsm08 said:

 

I'm starting to wonder if the shaft isn't in tight enough and is causing an internal leak.

 

i had suspected that.

but i didn‘t have a manual or a part, 

where i can compare, how it must be and where can be the fail.

 

Another thing i wonder, 

basicly oilpumpgears must fit snug in case, without to much gap.

i wonder if you told you can rotate the shaft fast enough, normally if the pump is well,

also slow motion is enough to move some oil.

 

i suggested the Accudrill just for a continouse rotation, not for the rotation speed.

that means if you press your finger to the Bore in Valvehousing faced to the pump and you rotate

the oilpump by hand (even slow) you must feel a massive resistance on the Pumpshaft while rotate.

 

if not, your pump seems not to work well.

 

Do you have calipers

 

 

[adsm08 2,022]

The gears are pretty snug. I usually can't just grab the shaft and spin it, especially not fast enough to move fluid. To spin it by hand and move fluid I have to install the pulley, stick the end of my finger on the outside of the pulley and spin my hand around about as fast as I can. I estimate I am getting it to about half of the speed the engine does at operating throttle.

 

 

I have to go get my dad's one car to take for safety inspection tomorrow, I can drive it without getting in trouble because I have an inspection license, if he gets pulled over for the expired stickers he will get a ticket. I'll stop at the store on my way and get a roll of oil-safe thread sealer tape and see if that makes a difference.

[adsm08 2,022]

OK gentlemen. I found, and fixed the issue, which it would appear I also caused.

 

 

Sticking out of the side of the valve in this picture is a roll pin. It's primary purpose, as far as I can determine, is to set the depth of the valve in the pump body. Normally at full rotation it can contact the shaft that holds the reservoir on.

 

I did not have this roll pin fully installed, and it was contacting the gear cover, cutting out the last few degrees of valve rotation, and keeping the fluid control passage from lining up with the upper port. I found it while doing a final post assembly check of everything, before putting the return spring and line adapters in. If it hadn't been for some of the ideas put in my head by @Tractorhead's suggestions I may never have tried rotating the valve before putting the spring in, and my not have ever caught it.

 

I tapped the pin in the rest of the way, assembled everything, and now it works again. Looks like it doesn't even leak.

 

Special thanks to @Tractorhead @wheelhorseman @Lane Ranger and everyone else who contributed to figuring this out.

[Tractorhead 9,064]

Good to hear, it works.

 

 

 

[wheelhorseman 3,211]

Excellent!!!!