Need 416-8 Electrical help...

[Horsegeezer 5]

Hi,

 

I'm new to the forum and need some help with my 1989 Onan-engined 416-8.  I already own (since new) an '86 416-8 with 42" mower deck; great machine in great shape.  Had a '71 Raider 10 for 44 years but a guy made me an offer I couldn't refuse.  I should have refused it anyway.

 

Anyway, I drove by a local junkyard and spotted the Onan with attached 44" snowblower, chains and wheel weights sitting on a trailer.  Gave the guy $400 for the whole shebang, delivered to my driveway.  Looked like a tree fell on the seat and fender, but I got a new seat, straightened up the fender and put on two new rear tires.  I was told there was a carburetor issue, but there is more going on than that--nothing happens when turning the ignition key.  Put in new ignition switch as old one looked corroded--no help.  No lights in on position, no start.  I jumped the solenoid and the engine started to turn over.  Checked the solenoid and got a click.  Fuses look OK, battery good.  All warning lights work--oil light flashes, but I believe that is the normal condition until the engine starts (?).  I'm stumped.  I'd like to get this thing to at least turn over with the key before I start getting into any engine issues and the leaky rear axle/differential.  I downloaded every manual and wiring/circuit diagram I could find on this model (even had 'em printed!), but I am by no means even competent when it comes to electrical problems.  I'd sure appreciate any advice!  Thanx.

Edited August 3, 2019 by Horsegeezer

[squonk 41,750]

Welcome from another CNY'r. Start by downloading this guide to get the wiring diagram.

 

 

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 11,159]

Garry

[Horsegeezer 5]

Thanx, Squonk, for the prompt reply.  I downloaded the guide weeks ago and printed the pages relevant to my tractor.  I'm getting better at reading circuit diagrams, but some things are confusing and make you wonder how accurate some of the info is.  For example, the diagrams show 7.5, 15 and 30 amp fuses, but the tractor has 10, 20 and 30 amp fuses installed.  The operators manual mentions a 15 and a 30, but no 7.5--or whatever.  So what's right?

 

Also it's frustrating that the diagrams don't tell you where all the components are physically located.  Hard to check stuff you can't find!

 

Maybe the thing that's most puzzling is that the lights and starter are both kaput, and I don't see where the circuits interconnect except through the 15 (20?) amp fuse.  And I'm not sure about that.

 

Also wondering about a good source for some of these WH-specific parts and, if I really get stuck, is there anyone within a 50-mile radius of Cortland, NY who would be able to diagnose and repair this troublesome steed?  And if you're from Waterloo, you should check out the Finger Lakes Live Steamers open house in Sept: https://fingerlakeslivesteamers.org/

 

[Horsegeezer 5]

Thanx, as I mentioned in my last post, I have all the wiring and circuit diagrams--for what it's worth so far--and my printed copy is sitting on the tractor seat.

 

The demystification guide is good, but what I really need is a "Wheel Horse Electrical Guide for Dummies." 

[953 nut 56,399]

1 hour ago, Horsegeezer said:

"Wheel Horse Electrical Guide for Dummies." 

The majority of the components that you can't find live under the battery. We will have to work on the guide you spoke of!    

[squonk 41,750]

I noticed there is more than one diagram for the 416-8. Can you find a serial number on it so we can figure out what year?

 

The Steamer grounds are just a few miles north of me. I'm planning on going.

[Horsegeezer 5]

2 hours ago, 953 nut said:

The majority of the components that you can't find live under the battery. We will have to work on the guide you spoke of!    

Thanx, now I know there's a start relay hiding under there somewhere.  I plan to get at it and check it out with my meter (per the demystification guide) and spray contact cleaner on every switch and connector I can find.

[Horsegeezer 5]

2 hours ago, squonk said:

I noticed there is more than one diagram for the 416-8. Can you find a serial number on it so we can figure out what year?

 

The Steamer grounds are just a few miles north of me. I'm planning on going.

It's a model 31-16O801; next number on the sticker is 36270 and below that is 8354.  Not sure which of those is the serial number.  99% sure it's a 1989 model.

I hope to go to that open house next month.  Maybe ride a Wheel Horse there, only about 60 miles.

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 11,159]

Serial number is 36270

Build date 1988 8354 December 19 Monday

 

Garry

[Horsegeezer 5]

Wow!  Thanx, Garry.  That really nails it down!

[KREP 15]

I just wrestled with mine to get it running. ( see “safety switch help”. problems) I too noticed my fuses were 10, 20, and 30 amp. I got lucky by finding the big square connector near the oil filter, then cleaning it up with CRC spray. I had already checked all the switches, and replaced the pto and seat switch.  I jumped the relay/solenoid and it would start right up. It took cleaning up all circuits and connectors to get current through to all the components. 

Edited August 5, 2019 by KREP
Correct remarks

[Horsegeezer 5]

13 hours ago, KREP said:

I just wrestled with mine to get it running. ( see “safety switch help”. problems) I too noticed my fuses were 10, 20, and 30 amp. I got lucky by finding the big square connector near the oil filter, then cleaning it up with CRC spray. I had already checked all the switches, and replaced the pto and seat switch.  I jumped the relay/solenoid and it would start right up. It took cleaning up all circuits and connectors to get current through to all the components. 

Thanx, everyone.  Glad to know I'm not the only one who has fuses that don't match the diagrams.  Still struggling to get to some of the switches, as if there are any screws or bolts on this old nag that aren't rusted shut I haven't found them yet.  Back at it, and I'll report on any progress as soon as there is any!

[KREP 15]

IAll i did to get to everything was take out the battery and tray. Then the screws on the shifter and instrument panels. Then the right panel above the foot rest and loosen the foot rest from underneath.  The folks on here told me what to do. This leaves everything accessible for service. Including clutch and pto switches.

Edited August 7, 2019 by KREP
Spelling

[Horsegeezer 5]

OK, with a gallon of PB Blaster, moto-tool, torch and giant vise-grips the stubborn bolts are out.  Removed trans tunnel cover, gauge panel, belt cover, battery and tray.  Found PTO and clutch switches.  Clutch switch doesn't "click" when I press it with my finger.  A silent switch, maybe?  Spray cleaned every contact I've been able to find so far, including 9-pin connector near the oil filter.  I'm going to check the solenoid again (not sure I did it right the first time), but I'm baffled by the starter relay--where the heck is this thing?  Definitely not under the battery tray--no electrical components of any kind there.  I believe I'm looking for a black box-like item about 1 1/4" square?   

 

Just to recap--no key start, no head or tail lights, idiot lights all working.  Battery reading 12.3 volts, engine cranks when jumping solenoid with a screwdriver.  I guess tomorrow I'll check/clean the seat switch.

This is the thanks I get for rescuing an orphan from a junkyard!

[KREP 15]

The clutch switch doesn’t have click. It just pushes in. 

[tunahead72 2,460]

12.3 volts is a little weak, especially if you're making multiple failed attempts to start your engine.  Personally, I would charge that battery a little just to eliminate it as a potential problem.

 

[KREP 15]

Does the relay that sends power to the solenoid test ok?  I replaced mine once about 15 years ago and once again a couple of weeks ago just to be safe.  I got it at oreillys auto parts. It has 2 big posts and 2 small posts.  It is a Ford fender mounted relay. Way cheaper than the Wheel Horse part. 

 

By the way, my serial number is   35326.  Our tractors are built pretty close to each other. 

Edited August 8, 2019 by KREP

[Horsegeezer 5]

3 hours ago, KREP said:

The clutch switch doesn’t have click. It just pushes in. 

OK, gotta clean the contacts on that one.

[Horsegeezer 5]

1 hour ago, tunahead72 said:

12.3 volts is a little weak, especially if you're making multiple failed attempts to start your engine.  Personally, I would charge that battery a little just to eliminate it as a potential problem.

 

Thanx, I'll give it a little more juice.

[Horsegeezer 5]

27 minutes ago, KREP said:

Does the relay that sends power to the solenoid test ok?  I replaced mine once about 15 years ago and once again a couple of weeks ago just to be safe.  I got it at oreillys auto parts. It has 2 big posts and 2 small posts.  It is a Ford fender mounted relay. Way cheaper than the Wheel Horse part. 

 

By the way, my serial number is   35326.  Our tractors are built pretty close to each other. 

I'd love to check the relay if I could find it!  As I said earlier, it's not under the battery tray.  Unless it's buried under the engine shrouding, I have no idea where to look...

[KREP 15]

This the part I am calling the relay. It is at the right front of your tractor. 

[Horsegeezer 5]

33 minutes ago, KREP said:

This the part I am calling the relay. It is at the right front of your tractor.

Thanx for the photo--that ends the confusion!  That part is a solenoid, not a relay.  The engine cranks with or without the ignition key when I jump the two top terminals with a screwdriver.  I think it works OK but need to check it again to make sure it "clicks" when juice is applied to the inputs.  So if there's any other relay, as I said I can't find the darn thing!  Thanx again

[KREP 15]

If there is another one I never saw it either.  I saw the ignition lock, that 9 pin in the area where the battery sits, the connector behind the instruments area (5 pin?), the connectors where the pto is, the clutch switch, and the 9 pin by the oil filter, the seat switch connector, and the little switch under the shifter plate.  Other than that the fuse receptical, for 10 and 20 amp fuses.  My 30 amp fuse looked real bad so I replaced it. I can’t think of anything else I saw or played with.  

 

Oh- at the top of the engine shroud, there are 3  connectors in a row. Look at the picture below. They are toward the top of the picture, left of the distributor, and are baby blue. I took them off and sprayed them and sanded the corrosion and snapped them back together. Easy to do, worth a try. 

 

[Horsegeezer 5]

24 minutes ago, KREP said:

If there is another one I never saw it either.  I saw the ignition lock, that 9 pin in the area where the battery sits, the connector behind the instruments area (5 pin?), the connectors where the pto is, the clutch switch, and the 9 pin by the oil filter, the seat switch connector, and the little switch under the shifter plate.  Other than that the fuse receptical, for 10 and 20 amp fuses.  My 30 amp fuse looked real bad so I replaced it. I can’t think of anything else I saw or played with.  

 

Oh- at the top of the engine shroud, there are 3  connectors in a row. Look at the picture below. They are toward the top of the picture, left of the distributor, and are baby blue. I took them off and sprayed them and sanded the corrosion and snapped them back together. Easy to do, worth a try.

 

 

It sounds like our machines are twin brothers.  I've found everything you mention, still have to check and clean a couple of things, charge up the battery a bit, recheck the solenoid and give her a try.

I still think the wiring and circuit diagrams are not entirely accurate, for example, they show a relay that doesn't seem to exist and fuses that don't match your tractor or mine.  Makes you question what else might be wrong.  Thanx for your input, my friend.