Electronic Conversion

[WHX?? 48,828]

It has to be the magnets flying past the mag that tells the little black box to fire the plug. A voltage buildup in the mag, electronics and a dash of PFM has to be what makes her go bang. Note the last paragraph on the instruction sheet.  

[formariz 11,987]

 

4 hours ago, 953 nut said:

Don't know. There has to be something that gives this device information on the location of the piston so it will fire the plug at twenty degrees before top dead center. Too early and it will backfire and be hard to start, to late and power will be reduced.

I just can't wrap my head around the notion of a magic box setting proper timing with nothing telling it where the piston is.   Please teach this old dog a new trick.

 

Here is the description of how it works. Location of module does not affect how it works. I know that to be a fact.

 

Universal and high performance. Improves engine performance by producing a strong spark, and by stabilizing the spark, much like my custom-made crank-trigger and flywheel-trigger electronic ignition does, except the detectable target is the magnets on or underneath the flywheel and the coil laminations.

How the timing is automatically set and how it works: First of all, with ignition points, the point gap determines where the ignition timing is set (on systems with a fixed or non-adjustable ignition coil). Therefore, the spark occurs when the magnet in the flywheel pass the coil laminations the moment the ignition points open. But with no ignition points, the magnet still pass the coil laminations at the same moment, which sends an electrical current through a transistor and electronic components within these modules. This current is sent in the form of a signal to the module; within, a transistor opens the primary circuit in the coil and the spark occurs. All this happens at the speed of electricity, which can be anywhere from about 50% to 99% of the speed of light, depending upon the quality of the electronic components and wire connections.

[953 nut 55,293]

[formariz 11,987]

LOL. Not magic but just evolution of technology.The stuff that electronics can do is nothing short of amazing. When I was able to take a dimension without moving from one spot to 250 feet away and afterwards physically verify it and it was within 1/8", it made a believer out of me.

[formariz 11,987]

Here is the whole thing from Brian. There are several different variations but they all work in the same principle.

 

Here is the whole thing from BrianReplace the Points and Condenser in a Magneto Ignition System with a Universal Solid State Electronic Ignition Module -

• Designed for self-energizing magneto ignition systems only. Will NOT work with battery-powered ignition systems.
• Upgrade the magneto ignition system on virtually any engine with the latest technology! Do away with the ignition points and condenser/capacitor, and install a solid state electronic ignition module. It should be the end of your ignition problems. The ignition points and condenser/capacitor is not to be connected to the coil or module. They need to be removed from the engine and plug the ignition points pushrod hole (Briggs & Stratton or Kohler engines).
• Universal and high performance. Improves engine performance by producing a strong spark, and by stabilizing the spark, much like my custom-made crank-trigger and flywheel-trigger electronic ignition does, except the detectable target is the magnets on or underneath the flywheel and the coil laminations. This module has a durable die-cast aluminum housing. Weather-proof and very reliable. Ignition timing is automatically set. No kick-back and no timing adjustment required. Works excellent with virtually any magneto ignition coil!
• Suitable for use with most 2 leg or 3 leg magneto coils and with a flywheel having one or two magnets mounted internally or externally, and with coil mounted underneath or outside of flywheel. Works great regardless of the polarity of the magnets, too. Works on most lawn mowers, chain saws, trimmers, garden tillers, snow throwers, brush cutters, various one or two cylinder outboard boat motors, etc., with ignition points and condenser/capacitor ignition. But will not work with most Stihl trimmers and chain saws, or when the ignition coil is energized by a generator that gets its power from the magnet in the flywheel, such as various outboard boat motors. Usually, the coil don't need replacing when substituting the ignition points and condenser/capacitor with one of these solid state electronic ignition modules. If the engine ran, then the coil is obviously good.
• Works only with magneto type ignition coils originally connected to contact ignition points and a condenser/capacitor. They will not work with solid state electronic ignition (CDI) coils, battery ignition coils or with flywheels having a ring of magnets mounted internally to which the ignition coil (mounted underneath flywheel also) operates off of, such as the bigger aluminum block Tecumseh engines (8hp and up). Engines can't start under full compression and with advanced ignition timing. One or the other must be "suppressed" in order for the engine to crank over without "kicking back" to start. Either it needs to have an automatic compression release to relieve about half the compression, then the compression will return to full upon start up, or the timing needs to be positioned at TDC, then it can automatically advance upon start up. (With the module, as each magnet pass the coil, it'll produce a spark. And if the spark don't occur at the precise time with the piston at a certain position in the cylinder, the engine will either "kick back" or will not run.) "Kick back" occurs when the crankshaft/flywheel suddenly and violently rebounds or rotates in the opposite direction, which is could bend or break the starter armature shaft or the aluminum starter housing. If the magnets for the charging system won't interfere with the magneto coil(s), then these modules should work well. But if the magneto coil(s) operate off the same magnets for the charging system, then neither module won't work. The modules senses when the magnet pass the coil and that's when it makes the spark. If a bunch of magnets continually pass the coil, then the coil will produce an array of sparks.
• How the timing is automatically set and how it works: First of all, with ignition points, the point gap determines where the ignition timing is set (on systems with a fixed or non-adjustable ignition coil). Therefore, the spark occurs when the magnet in the flywheel pass the coil laminations the moment the ignition points open. But with no ignition points, the magnet still pass the coil laminations at the same moment, which sends an electrical current through a transistor and electronic components within these modules. This current is sent in the form of a signal to the module; within, a transistor opens the primary circuit in the coil and the spark occurs. All this happens at the speed of electricity, which can be anywhere from about 50% to 99% of the speed of light, depending upon the quality of the electronic components and wire connections. Either module provides unlimited RPM. The conventional ignition points and condenser/capacitor ignition system is less responsive.
• This module should work very well with most magneto ignition coils. However, a new coil is recommended to use with this module. If a used coil is utilized, a weak spark may occur. This module is not for use on engines equipped with battery ignition, solid state electronic ignition coil/modules or multiple magnets under the flywheel with ignition coil under the flywheel, too. Scroll down for wiring diagrams and installation instructions Ê.
  • Solid State Electronic Ignition Module w/Two Terminals. $20.00 each, plus shipping & handling. [Return to previous paragraph, section or website]

Universal Solid State Electronic Ignition Module Wiring Diagram and Installation Instructions Ê

Use the supplied short wire with the female connector and ring connector to connect to the negative terminal of the module to engine ground with the supplied self-tapping screw. Secure the module with the self-tapping screw to the engine sheet metal with good ventilation and air-flow.

Disconnect or cut-off the ignition points and condenser wire from the coil (leave long). Connect this wire to the supplied long wire to the positive terminal of module and to the kill switch. Use the supplied wire nut to connect the two wires together. Fasten the module to the sheet metal of the engine Replace the blower housing (if removed), crank the engine rapidly and check for spark at the spark plug's tip. If no spark, recheck the wiring for proper or correct connections.

[Fpare 3]

UPDATE:

 

Ok, so I installed the points and condenser and the spark cam in regular or consistant, However, it was still very weak. I then spent the money and effort replacing the coil on top of the magneto with little to no improvement....

 

To be honest, I'm about at my wits end on this ignition problem....953nut mentioned converting to battery ignition? Does anyone have a parts list/procedure for doing this?

 

Again, appreciate all the responses.....Going camping for the weekend and won't be able to respond until Monday. Have a great weekend everyone!

 

[953 nut 55,293]

Here is information from Brian Miller's site on doing the job. He sells kits or you could buy the components from your auto parts house.

 

Single Cylinder (Flathead) Engines - Convert from Magneto Ignition to Battery-Powered Ignition. Convert virtually any single cylinder, air-cooled cast iron or various aluminum block small gas engine, such as Kohler, Tecumseh, Briggs & Stratton, Clinton, etc., that originally came with a magneto ignition system (having ignition points, condenser/capacitor and ignition coil that has voltage generated by a permanent magnet in the flywheel, instead of being powered by a battery or a self-generating charging coil) into a battery-powered ignition system. NOTE: Must use auniversal automotive start/ignition key switch, or a push-button switch to crank the engine with an OFF/ON toggle or key switch to power the ignition. Reuse existing ignition points, but set gap at .020" or set ignition timing at 20º BTDC, and reuse same type of spark plug, but set gap at .035" for a stronger spark. See wiring diagram below Ê. Ignition Kit with compact-size epoxy-encapsulated ignition coil. Use this kit when there is not enough space on the engine or tractor for a full-size 12 volt canister ignition coil. Kit includes: New 12 volt 3.5 ohm compact-size epoxy-encapsulated ignition coil w/mounting bracket and molded-in 11" length metal core spark plug wire w/90º boot/terminal (set spark plug gap at .030" with this coil), new condenser/capacitor, new ignition points and new 22" length 16 gauge coil-to-ignition points wire w/grommet and terminals. Compact-size epoxy-encapsulated ignition coil only. $15.00 per kit, plus shipping & handling. Ignition Kit with compact-size epoxy-encapsulated ignition coil. $60.50 per kit, plus shipping & handling.   Ignition Kits to Convert from Breakerless Ignition to Battery-Powered Ignition with Points and Condenser for Kohler engine models K181, K241, K301 or K321. (K341 and K361 engines originally did not come with Breakerless Ignition.) Instead of replacing defective cost-prohibitive Breakerless Ignition components, convert your engine to the inexpensive, low-cost and reliable ignition points and condenser/capacitor ignition. Kit includes: new 3.0 ohm ignition coil w/mounting bracket, new ignition points, new condenser/capacitor, 22" length 16 gauge coil-to-ignition points wire w/grommet and terminals, ignition points pushrod, ignition points cover, ignition points cover gasket and four 10-24 UNC (coarse thread) screws. Use the same OEM Kohler spark plug wire and ignition switch that came with the tractor or equipment. NOTE: Use a pointed #6 self-tapping sheet metal or drywall screw and a mini nail puller pry bar to remove the brass block-off plug from ignition points pushrod hole. Do not force the screw into the plug or the plug could go inside the crankcase! Just gently thread it in a few threads, that's all it takes to pull the plug out. But if the engine block has a Briggs & Stratton ignition points plunger plug, the plug can be removed by using a mini nail puller pry bar as well. May need to use a hammer to drive the wedge under the head of the plug to get a good grip on it to pull it out. And if there seems to be no movement for opening and closing of the ignition points, there may be some metal flashing blocking the ignition points pushrod hole where the factory didn't drill all the through the hole. Because all Kohler engines with Breakerless Ignition have the camshaft with the ignition points lobe. Only the Magnum engines have the cam without the ignition points lobe. After this is remedied, set ignition points gap at .020" or better yet, set ignition timing at 20º BTDC, and reuse same type of spark plug. See wiring diagram below Ê.IMPORTANT: The wire that comes from the stator under the flywheel for Kohler Trigger Module or Tecumseh Solid State Ignition Module generates about 250 volts (serious) while the engine is running at full governored speed. Do not touch this wire (terminal) with one bare hand and the engine itself with your other hand while the engine is running! It is not needed for any of my custom-made crank-trigger and flywheel-trigger electronic ignition systems. So snip off this wire or tape up the terminal to prevent a short circuit or electrocution. Breakerless Ignition to Points/Condenser Conversion Kit with Compact Epoxy-Encapsulated 12 Volt Ignition Coil. Kit includes: New 12 volt 3.5 ohm compact epoxy-encapsulated ignition coil w/integrated metal core spark plug wire and mounting bracket (set spark plug gap at .030" with this coil), new low capacity condenser/capacitor, new ignition points, new points pushrod, points cover, points cover gasket, four 10-24 UNC mounting screws, new spark plug, and new 22" length 16 gauge coil-to-points wire w/grommet and terminals. $89.00 per kit, plus shipping & handling.   Breakerless Ignition to Points/Condenser Conversion Kit with Full-Size Canister-Type 12 Volt Ignition Coil. Kit includes: New 12 volt 3.0 ohm full-size canister-type ignition coil w/mounting bracket (set spark plug gap at .035" with this coil), new 11" length metal core spark plug wire, new standard capacity condenser/capacitor, new ignition points, new points pushrod, points cover, points cover gasket, four 10-24 UNC mounting screws, new spark plug, and new 22" length 16 gauge coil-to-points wire w/grommet and terminals. $98.00 per kit, plus shipping & handling.   [Return to Previous Section, Paragraph or Website] Click Here for a Custom Maintenance-Free Crank-Trigger Ignition System for Competition Pulling Only that Operates Off the PTO End of the Engine. (Updated 6/9/17) Click Here to Convert from Breakerless Ignition or Points/Condenser Ignition to a Custom Maintenance-Free Crank-Trigger Electronic Ignition System that Operates off the Flywheel End of the Engine. (Updated 6/9/17)

New points, condensers/capacitors, coils and spark plugs for other makes and models of engines are also available. Please call or email me for your needs. Please contact me if you're interested in any of the above È parts.

Custom Crank-Trigger Electronic Ignition Parts and Kits and High Quality Tachometers | Where Science and Ignition Come Together! (The parts listed below Ê may be purchased individually or as a kit.) Top of page | Please contact me if you're interested in any of these parts or services.

FYI - I can install a Custom crank-trigger electronic ignition system and/or rewire your lawn & garden tractor, equipment or garden pulling tractor so all the electrical accessories will work and the engine will start quickly every time. I have the knowledge, skills, all the tools and parts necessary to perform a quality job. I've rewired many customer's lawn & garden tractor/equipment or garden pulling tractor with great results. If you're interested, click here for my phone numbers, address and directions to my shop. - Brian Miller

[Lane Ranger 10,968]

On 5/30/2019 at 7:42 PM, 953 nut said:

Gotta read the note,              you are out of luck on this one.

 

I wonder why instructions say remove negative wire from battery on these Kohler magneto motors if the are only manual start and have no battery????