Electronic Conversion

[Fpare 3]

Folks - 

 

My 1976 C160 with a K301 quit firing so I decided to make the conversion to electronic ignition with the Kohler kit below:

 

Now the engine timing appears to be off, back firing etc...how do you adjust the timing with this conversion kit? I should also note that I replace the carburator as well and was successful in tuning it at idle speeds, however at higher speeds, I can't tell whether or not I'm making a difference.

 

Thanks to anyone in advance who may have some suggestions...!

New Kohler OEM IElectronic Ign Conversion Kit 2575710 2575710-s

Edited May 30, 2019 by Fpare

[Fpare 3]

Forgot to mention that i have the magneto with the coil setting on top ignition

[ebinmaine 67,589]

 

 

 

I'm not familiar with that set up so I can't answer your question but I'm sure others will be along shortly who can. Might not be a bad idea to post a few pictures if you can.

 

[WHX?? 48,828]

Points kinda guy myself but chiming in to educate myself and

I'm sure some guys here have tried this tho.

[formariz 11,987]

Did you say you have a magneto system, not battery ignition? It will not work with battery ignition. It should set timing on its own automatically. It will replace points and condenser.I use similar ones but on smaller engines like a k91.

Edited May 30, 2019 by formariz

[953 nut 55,296]

I have not installed on of these, but if you mount the trigger device accurately the spark should be set for life. There is a  S (spark) marking on the flywheel (it may be covered with some rust and need to be sanded lightly to find the mark) and a sight pore in the flywheel cover that will allow you to use a timing light to check your timing.

 

[formariz 11,987]

8 minutes ago, 953 nut said:

I have not installed on of these, but if you mount the trigger device accurately the spark should be set for life. There is a  S (spark) marking on the flywheel (it may be covered with some rust and need to be sanded lightly to find the mark) and a sight pore in the flywheel cover that will allow you to use a timing light to check your timing.

 

This one does not use a trigger. It is just a module that replaces points and condenser. It should automatically set the timing, but they will not work on a battery ignition system.

[953 nut 55,296]

3 minutes ago, formariz said:

It should automatically set the timing,

Tell me more.    How does it set the timing without some sort of reference to the flywheel or crankshaft speed?

[formariz 11,987]

3 minutes ago, 953 nut said:

Tell me more.    How does it set the timing without some sort of reference to the flywheel or crankshaft speed?

Good question. Give a little time to find instructions for one. I have it here somewhere. I could be wrong.

Edited May 30, 2019 by formariz

[formariz 11,987]

@953 nutHere is what is states on instructions

 

Universal and high performance. Improves engine performance by producing a strong spark, and by stabilizing the spark, much like my custom-made crank-trigger and flywheel-trigger electronic ignition does, except the detectable target is the magnets on or underneath the flywheel and the coil laminations. This module has a durable die-cast aluminum housing. Weather-proof and very reliable. Ignition timing is automatically set. No kick-back and no timing adjustment required. Works excellent with virtually any magneto ignition coil!

Edited May 30, 2019 by formariz

[953 nut 55,296]

9 minutes ago, formariz said:

Universal and high performance. Improves engine performance by producing a strong spark, and by stabilizing the spark, much like my custom-made crank-trigger and flywheel-trigger electronic ignition does, except the detectable target is the magnets on or underneath the flywheel and the coil laminations.

Is this the Kohler unit that @Fpare is trying to make work properly or is this one from Brian Miller?

    You must need to mount it at a precise location relative to the flywheel and magneto coil, otherwise it wouldn't have any way of knowing where the piston travel is and when it should fire.

[formariz 11,987]

Quote is from Brian Miller. I am still looking for instructions here. It works with same principle, I used a couple of them.

[Fpare 3]

Gents -

 

THANK YOU for all the responses...!

 

I hooked up my inline spark tested and the spark looks irregular, as in it is not rythmic or consistant at all.....Ill pull the flywheel back off and replace the coil on the stator. Yes, I have a magneto ignition, NOT the battery ignition.

 

Here is a link to what I'll be trying next and would welcome any comments from someone who has installed one of these or experienced similar symptoms....

 

https://isavetractors.com/ignition-coil-for-magneto-ignition-system-for-kohler-k141-k161-k181-k241-k301-engine/

 

And some pictures as requested:

 

THANKS AGAIN!

 

 

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 11,046]

Your tractor would have electric start so it also has a charging stator.

 

The ignition module is likely looking at too many magnets in the flywheel and that is throwing the timing off or firing too many times per revolution not allowing the coil time to build up the high voltage.

 

Garry

[953 nut 55,296]

Gotta read the note,              you are out of luck on this one.

 

[Fpare 3]

Oh man....ok, should have read a little closer and the previous coil explanation also makes a lot of sense.

 

ok, back to points and condenser it is then....Thank you for setting me straight..!!

[WHX?? 48,828]

Good catch on the manual start only Richard. What kind of problems were you having with the points setup Fpare? Looks like you have a new carb on her too, hows that working out? 

 

You mentioned you have put these on a small bore Cas... How's that working out?

[953 nut 55,296]

If it were mine I would go for a battery ignition system. You have a set of points, all you need is the condenser and ignition coil and a key switch with an "I" rather than a "M" (perhaps some safety switch rewiring) and you will be in business. We can walk you through the change over with no problem.   

[formariz 11,987]

13 minutes ago, WHX22 said:

Good catch on the manual start only Richard. What kind of problems were you having with the points setup Fpare? Looks like you have a new carb on her too, hows that working out? 

 

You mentioned you have put these on a small bore Cas... How's that working out?

I have 4 of then installed on k91s. They work great. Biggest noticeable difference is on starting the engines. All on first pull if there is fuel in bowl. I think the fact that it precisely sets timing automatically it makes them start easily. Also no points or condensers to wear or go out of adjustment. I have two of this type and two by Nova. They all work in the same principle.

[953 nut 55,296]

10 hours ago, formariz said:

the fact that it precisely sets timing automatically

The timing is set by the physical location of the unit being bolted to the correct blower cover bolt. 

[Pullstart 62,905]

All good reads, lots to take in here!

 

 @Fpare, I see you’re not much of a fisherman!    But what’s that in your hands?

[WHX?? 48,828]

I guess I never knew these things were even out there. Looks like they are even reasonably priced. Only down side that I can see is not original.

So your saying Richard the module mounted on the outside of the shroud does the trigger sensing? I guess I'd have to play with one to figure it out and it may come to that.

11 hours ago, formariz said:

Biggest noticeable difference is on starting the engines. All on first pull

I've got a k91 that's gives me a workout when trying to start no matter how much I tweak the points. Dan @Achto had the same problem with the 91 on his Mclean but points  tweaking solved the problem. Can one use these on say Clintons or Teckys?

[formariz 11,987]

10 minutes ago, WHX22 said:

I guess I never knew these things were even out there. Looks like they are even reasonably priced. Only down side that I can see is not original.

So your saying Richard the module mounted on the outside of the shroud does the trigger sensing? I guess I'd have to play with one to figure it out and it may come to that.

I've got a k91 that's gives me a workout when trying to start no matter how much I tweak the points. Dan @Achto had the same problem with the 91 on his Mclean but points  tweaking solved the problem. Can one use these on say Clintons or Teckys?

I am not sure about the location thing.I believe it shows it there as a matter of convenience. I have the Novas mounted on different locations and they work the same. As a matter of fact the very first one I did just to try it I grounded the wire but did not attach it to anything and it worked. Could that one be that way?Possible. I do have the Kohlers there.

Edited May 31, 2019 by formariz

[formariz 11,987]

This has got me thinking which is a good thing.I am pretty sure these things do not act as a trigger in the true nature of one and here are my reasons. For one I have them in different locations some not even on the blower housing and they all work fine. As I stated before I even tried them unattached to tractor and no problem. A trigger mechanism requires a magnet which this does not have. Assuming that it would work on reverse using the flywheel magnet as such, proximity would I think be an issue. I have here tractors with trigger systems, and proximity is an issue in starting them if it is not very close.Also on the instructions to the Nova it states to mount it either on the blower housing or any other convenient location with good ventilation. Its an electronic device. I believe it senses the signal sent by magneto through the wire, and then at the very precise time it fires. I believe that in the Kohler instructions the location shown is just a matter of convenience. However to satisfy myself when I have a little time I will remove one from there and try it even off the tractor just grounding it.

[953 nut 55,296]

4 hours ago, WHX22 said:

So your saying Richard the module mounted on the outside of the shroud does the trigger sensing? I guess I'd have to play with one to figure it out and it may come to that

Don't know. There has to be something that gives this device information on the location of the piston so it will fire the plug at twenty degrees before top dead center. Too early and it will backfire and be hard to start, to late and power will be reduced.

3 hours ago, formariz said:

However to satisfy myself when I have a little time I will remove one from there and try it even off the tractor just grounding it

I just can't wrap my head around the notion of a magic box setting proper timing with nothing telling it where the piston is.   Please teach this old dog a new trick.