2 horses down

[mbn32166 5]

So both of my wheelhorses went down in a period of 2 days.My C175 blew the main drive belt.Changed the belt but acts like rear end/transmission is locked.With the wheels off the ground both spin freely but as soon as they are on ground nothing,tractor wont budge. So then  after plowing with my 312-8 blew the drive belt on that.Changed belt but now it doesnt want to move.Got it too back up little bit in reverse but doesnt seem to have any forward gears.It has been extremely cold  dont know if that would have anything too do with it(teens to negative degrees with wind chill down in-20 to -30).Just looking for ideas or suggestions.May not be able to do anything till we get a warm spell.Thanks in advance.

[Blackhood Bill 721]

I would start with checking simple things. Loose belt, low low fluids, loose pulleys, etc.... new to those wheel horse there will be more knowledgeable people who can help who will chime in.

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 11,096]

Any chance water in the oil has turned to ice?

 

Garry

[953 nut 55,823]

1 hour ago, mbn32166 said:

It has been extremely cold  dont know if that would have anything too do with it

If the tractors were ever left outside during their lives it is likely that some water got into the gear box and the oil/water emulsification has frozen. If you can cover either one with a few blankets and put a heater under it for a few hours it should free up enough to change the oil. Be sure to jack up the front end so all the present oil will drain. The drain plug is near the back of the transmission and takes an allen wrench. Use 80-90 gear oil to refill it.

[ohiofarmer 3,276]

 To speed up that process, I lift the tractor with a hoist really high--so high that taking out the battery is a good idea. ithen take some clear vinyl tubing and snap it over the nipple on an old fashioned gas jug. On the fill hole of the jug, apply suction from a shop vac.  To get it really clean, spray some kerosine in the fill hole with an equipment cleaner from Harbor Freight and all kinds of additional dirt comes outhttps://www.harborfreight.com/engine-cleaning-gun-68290.html

 

 open link to view the tool

[mbn32166 5]

Well they have both been outside since I have owned the just dont have anyplace to store them inside.I changed the fluid in the C175  this past summer but I dont know if I got all the moisture out.AS far as the 312 just seemed odd it was working fine until belt went and now just doesnt want to move.Any how thanks for input when I get a couple days of warmer weather will try draining them and refillng and see what happens.Actually on that note would kerosene clean them out even without being able to run them?

[ohiofarmer 3,276]

 The reason I used the cleaning gun to spray kero in there was I felt it might wash the dirt and rust off the gears. I used a suction hose to take all the residue out as you do not want that kero thinning down the gear oil.. All I know for sure is that the clear vinyl hose had a lot of brown grunge being sucked out of it..When it started turning clear, I put new gear oil in.

 

 It can be a dirty job. Maybe protect your eyes and wear old clothing you might have to throw away because of the smell. I just kept moving the end of the vinyl hose around the drain port to suck every place I could get.

[wallfish 17,080]

Remove the gear shifter and look inside at the shift forks. The opening in the forks should look like a small rectangle when it's in neutral. My guess is it's stuck in 2 gears at once since it was working then locked. Quick shifting does it when things aren't tight or the ball on the shifter is worn. You can move the forks with a large screwdriver back to the neutral position. Inspect the shifter for wear or if the "donut" is loose. Also keep the dog point set screw (which holds the shifter) semi tight. too loose can cause this.

[953 nut 55,823]

10 hours ago, wallfish said:

Quick shifting does it when things aren't tight or the ball on the shifter is worn

      But, Two of them in one Very Cold Day?               At any rate, here is a helpful post.

 

[stevasaurus 22,869]

I'm thinking the same thing as Wallfish.  Jacked up he can turn the wheels...means the differential is OK and not froze.  Stuck between gears seems like the problem.  Thinking about 2 tractors doing that, when you have the same guy with bad shifting habits...it is very possible.  Not to say mbn32166 has some bad habits...but if you are shifting fast from reverse to 2nd...or vise-versa...that is what happens.  Easy fix...pull the shifter and use a large screw driver to pry the forks back into neutral...replace shifter.  If this is your problem...you need to come to a complete stop before shifting and shift slowly and in the "H" pattern.  Let us know what you find. 

[953 nut 55,823]

4 hours ago, stevasaurus said:

Jacked up he can turn the wheels...means the differential is OK and not froze. 

              Differential is higher than the oil level but the 44 tooth gear is all the way down in the oil and one of the gears on the input shaft is too. If the oil/water slurry is frozen the axle and differential gears will be able to turn but the others won't.

[wallfish 17,080]

But, since he was using the tractors when they locked up, the gears weren't frozen in ice from sitting. Which is why I guessed shifter forks in two gears at once. Although it is certainly possible loose ice jammed into the gears while using it.

 

EDIT  After reading his post again, maybe it's one of each symptom

Edited January 23, 2019 by wallfish

[stevasaurus 22,869]

@953 nut  The differential is not entirely out of the oil at any time.  It sits in 1" to 1 1/2" of oil and has nice sized holes for the oil to flow in and out.  In this picture, you can see that the differential goes from top to bottom in the case half.  It does sit in enough oil to coat the pinions that are on the bottom.

 

[Spareparts 84]

Fought this same problem this morning on my 2500 Anniversary Edition, changed the fluid this spring and installed a new boot

but it still got about a qt. and half of water out after thawing it out. I put Valvoline 50 wt. in it and did my snow plowing and put in back in

the warm shop and drained it again, milky looking oil came out. Then I read in one of the post's to jack up the front, went right out and

jacked it up and got the rest of the oil out. Really good tip, thanks for that. 

[mbn32166 5]

Think I need to clarify something here.I wasn't using the C17. when the rear locked.I had started it and moved it a week or so before.and it was fine.The next time I started it and tried too move it was when I smoked the belt,I actually thought the rearend was frozen to the ground until my son pulled it out of where it was parked and then discovered the rear end was locked up.Again though it was probably in the 40s  the last time it moved to the 20s when the belt blew and now it sits n 1-2 ft snow so nothing is going to be done with it for a while.

[stevasaurus 22,869]

@mbn32166  this last post sounds like this horse is froze because of water.  If you might get some of this real cold weather that we are getting here in Chicago (-10F and more), I am worrying about you cracking that transmission case.  If it is just a touch of water, it may be alright, but if there is a fair amount it could crack  it.  At the very least, I would tarp the horse, that would stop the wind chill and maybe even hold some heat from the sun.  If you have a dip stick, I'm thinking a can of Heat or a couple of cups of anti-freeze.  If no dip stick, you could pull off the seat and fenders and add through a bolt hole.  You could also put an oil pan under the trans and pull the drain plug and then tarp the horse.  That way if we did get a thaw, it might drain the water.  Let us know what you think. 

[mbn32166 5]

So finally got a warm day and went out and played around with the 312-8.Pulled the shifter and it looked ok and as near as I could tell it was in neutral.The set screw was fairly loose but it tightened and now the shifter is tight whereas before it had a lot of slop.I jacked the rear end off the ground,started her up and shifted through the gears.Wheels turn but theres no power .I could stop them with my hand.The other thing I noticed was they turn independently of one another.You could stop one and the other would keep spinning.Dont know if this means anything or not.

[953 nut 55,823]

Each axle and the pulley that your belt from the engine goes to have a key on them to lock the hubs and pulley to their respective shafts, If any one of these keys is broken it will prevent the tractor from moving. Take a magic marker and put a line on each one across the axle/hub and pulley/shaft. Do your test again and see which one is no longer lined up.

[953 nut 55,823]

Looking at your previous posts I see that the transmission was locked up, Apparently the gear oil has some water in it and had frozen. Pull the dip stick on the transmission and see if it is a clear golden oil color.

[mbn32166 5]

I did wonder about the keys in the shafts but have never had one sheer off before whether it was on 1 of my wheelhorses or other equipment I have owned through the years.I will try that and see what happens.As far as the locked trans that was on my C17 and I did check the oil and it is clear.But its still buried in a pile of snow so it will have to wait a little longer. 

[gwest_ca-(File Mod) 11,096]

If there is water in the oil and the tractor has sat idle for a period of time during temps above the freezing point the water will go to the bottom of the oil. If the drain plug is removed and nothing comes out it is likely a layer of ice that is preventing the oil from coming out.

 

Garry

[mbn32166 5]

I changed the oil in the C17 last summer but there still could have been water in it.I went out today started her up and she moved like nothing was ever wrong.I guess another fluid change is in her future.Now as far as the 312-8 I tried  the magic marker and nothing the marks didnt move.I am starting to think internal damage of some sort just dont know where to go from here.Broken axle?I simply dont know.My son was using it to plow snow it was running moving fine,then the belt went.Changed the belt and now nothing.

[953 nut 55,823]

32 minutes ago, mbn32166 said:

I changed the oil in the C17 last summer but there still could have been water in it.I went out today started her up and she moved like nothing was ever wrong.I guess another fluid change is in her future

Be sure to jack up the front of the tractor while draining the oil from the transmission. There is a hump in the center of the bottom that can trap some oil if you don't jack it up.

[mbn32166 5]

Ok thanks

[stevasaurus 22,869]

mbn...your post...#17 in this thread is normal...that is how the differential works.