Grounding plastic gas tote

[MalMac 1,331]

Ok, I have a 30 gal. Plastic gas tote that I use for non-ethanol gas. I would like to leave it in the bed of my truck for filling. Since it’s not on the ground when filling it’s not grounded. Can a simple wire and clamp  be used to attach to the tank then just be put on the ground to ground it preventing any static discharge. Seems simple enough 

but I have had simple enough turn into a big bite in the back side. In this case a possible flash fire.

[ebinmaine 67,268]

I see bright people all the time filling their vehicles with the engine running or filling the gas can while it's still sitting in the bed of the truck or trunk of the car.

 

 

I'm curious to see what the answer is you come up with.

[Racinbob 11,042]

I suppose that would help but remember it's not just the can. How many times have you received a static shock when you touch your car door handle? Your body, the can and the nozzle need to be at the same potential. Touch a metal part of the nozzle (they are grounded) then touch the nozzle to the side of the can and you've done all you can do. As far as filling then in the vehicle......well......the sign says don't do it. 

[Mikey the Monkey 697]

is the spark/explosion risk as high with diesel fuel?

[The Tuul Crib 7,336]

Even stupider yet puffing on a cigarette will pumping!  Duh

[peter lena 8,580]

agree with ebinmaine on that grounding issue, people today are so stupid it can be scary  getting gas near  one . between getting  out of the car , smoking , cellphone right over the gas nozzle , I just don't want to be there when it sparks off. my plant was intrinsically safe and regularly tested for any related upgrades , watching people get away with what they do is frightening , pete  

[Achto 27,502]

22 minutes ago, Mikey the Monkey said:

is the spark/explosion risk as high with diesel fuel?

 

No, this is one reason why I think the military likes it so much. Diesel is not very easy to light on fire, once burning it will go for a long time though. 

[JoeM 7,871]

Back in my early days I worked for a company that owned their own helicopter. I would fly looking at equipment we wanted to purchase. At times we needed fuel we would come in and the fuel guy always clipped a ground from his truck to the chopper. Like racinbob said, that put us a the same potential. I think grounding the metal on the truck to the pump would be the best choice, not so much the plastic tote.

 

[953 nut 55,069]

I'm not from the government, but I am here to be helpful!                      Here is what our government has to say about it

Description of Hazard

In recent incidents reported to the National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH), fires spontaneously ignited when workers or others attempted to fill portable gasoline containers (gas cans) in the backs of pickup trucks equipped with plastic bed liners or in cars with carpeted surfaces. Serious skin burns and other injuries resulted. Similar incidents in the last few years have resulted in warning bulletins from several private and government organizations.

These fires result from the buildup of static electricity. The insulating effect of the bed liner or carpet prevents the static charge generated by gasoline flowing into the container or other sources from grounding. The discharge of this buildup to the grounded gasoline dispenser nozzle may cause a spark and ignite the gasoline. Both ungrounded metal (most hazardous) and plastic gas containers have been involved in these incidents.

Fire Hazard: Filling gas can in pickup truck with plastic bed liner.
Safe Practice: Always place gas can on ground before refueling. Touch can with gas dispenser nozzle before removing can lid. Keep gas dispenser nozzle in contact with can inlet when filling.

Recommendations For Prevention

Construction workers and others in small businesses who often work with gasoline-powered equipment commonly use portable gasoline containers. Homeowners use gasoline cans for their lawn mowers and other equipment.

• Avoid the hazardous practice of leaving the portable gasoline containers in pickup trucks or cars when refueling!
• Before filling, always remove the containers from the vehicle and place them on the ground at a safe distance from the vehicle (provides path to dissipate static charge to ground).
• Touch the container with the gas dispenser nozzle before removing the container lid (provides another path to dissipate static charge to ground).
• Keep the nozzle in contact with the container inlet when filling (to dissipate static charge buildup from flow of gasoline).

[wallfish 16,984]

2 hours ago, 953 nut said:

I'm not from the government

That's always the first lie from government officials! I knew you were a mole for the NSA to keep an eye on us small engine folk. Just took a while to catch ya!

[MalMac 1,331]

Basically this big transfer tote is worthless unless it can be grounded from the bed of the truck. I don’t know about y’all but I can’t  lift it by myself easily into the bed of my pickup. I can unload it with a front end loader. Maybe the answer here is just get several smaller cans that can be sat on the ground. Seems to be the Safest answer. It only takes a small static spark and you’ll have a bad day.

[ebinmaine 67,268]

You got me thinking about this the other day so I did a little looking around on the internetsss.....

 

I'm not going to quote my sources because I don't want to get into the liability behind it but you could probably find the same information that I did.

 

 

It looks as though it's going to vary state-to-state as to how much gasoline you can carry in any given container but the

 

maximum by federal appears to be 8 gallons per container.

 

New York State appears to be 5 gallons per container.

 

There are variances and loopholes involved with those things so I'm not saying you cannot carry that 30 gallon container.

 

[JoeM 7,871]

Never gave that bed liner a thought. That sure would create an issue for static.

Sounds like MalMac got the safest idea.

[ebinmaine 67,268]

1 hour ago, MalMac said:

Maybe the answer here is just get several smaller cans that can be sat on the ground

 

 

19 minutes ago, OILUJ52 said:

Never gave that bed liner a thought. That sure would create an issue for static.

Sounds like MalMac got the safest idea.

 

 

As near as I can find as long as you're not being paid to do it, OSHA does not get involved.. DOT still has a Federal road limit of 8.00 gallons per container.

Adding in the minimum 10% for expansion you would need to find a container of 8.8 gallons.

 

Odd thing about that is I've personally never seen a gas can larger than 5 gallons.

 

I know they make them. I guess all this would explain the absence of them from the entire life that I have lived.

 

 

I'M glad this subject came up because I was thinking about doing this myself and now I already know the answer.

More 5-gallon cans.

 

[aghead 72]

I used metal gas cans till in my 20's, trucks/cars had metal tanks then, I used 5g buckets, milk jugs, antifreeze jugs, coleman fuel cans, ...now all plastic material. I've never had a static shock on the metal nor the plastic. I think "Myth Busters" proved this busted...just like shooting a gas tank on a car doesn't explode.

I'm gonna pump my gas (leaded or whatever) with a smirk on my face just like I do when I tear my mattress tags off! I'm a southern Rebel and proud of it.

[Sarge 3,463]

As long as you don't have a bed liner of any sort or are willing to ground the tank to the truck (such as truck-mounted bed tanks) you can get rid of the static risk by using a static strap on the vehicle. If you ever work around gas pipeline systems all vehicles on site must have a static strap - or risk getting your butt run off the job. I run static straps on my vehicles for this reason, as well as when carrying fuel cans in the bed. It just makes sense, as well as helps prevent corrosion on the vehicle itself.

 

It does drive you nuts when people chase you down to warn you of "that thing you're dragging underneath", or all the questions at the fuel stations, parking lots and other places.

 

Just be aware, any static strap has to go to the vehicle frame, not any axles. I always use ground straps between frame and cab/bed/etc

 

I prefer this brand, they last much longer and provide a very positive grounding point to the frame/earth -

http://www.mizter.com/

 

 

Sarge.

[wh500special 2,160]

I wouldn't fuel that container in the back of my truck, but I suppose it might be possible to dissipate the static if you had the tank sitting on a metal plate in the vehicle that was then bonded with a grounding strap to the chassis of the truck and the gas pump.  I suppose it might still be trouble if you found a way to get the static on the top side of the tank to build up faster than it could naturally drain away to the plate underneath.  So, probably not the best idea to leave it in the truck.

 

I've never been shocked by a gas can, but I have been by the bedliner in my old truck.  Just walking around in the bed I could feel my hair on my legs raise and I got the little pop when I grabbed the bedrail to jump out.  I've also felt a charge buildup on a polyethylene gas container, but never high enough to feel it.  And we've all been shocked in dry weather when we slide out of our car and grab the handle.

 

I would think that the static buildup issue not only pertains to the act of fueling, but would extend to sliding that container around in the back of the truck as well.  Similar circumstances.  There, the trick is to keep the lid tightly on so as not to have a burnable mix of vapors in the vicinity of any accidental discharge.

 

It's never a bad idea to first touch the chassis of the gas pump to drain any charge on your body before you reach for the gas nozzle.  Also probably not a bad idea to re-touch the car while holding the nozzle before you stick the nozzle in the fill pipe.  Let your electrolyte filled body be a momentary grounding strap.

 

Replicating the exact and probably not very common conditions that would allow a static discharge to touch off a gas explosion in your truckbed would be extremely difficult, but the possibility does certainly exist.  The exact combination of having an explosive vapor in the right small window of concentration (between its LEL and UEL) and enough charge available to produce a spark would be exceedingly rare.

 

But still possible.

 

There is a similar parallel that exists in vacuum and dust collection systems.  Dry air conveyed through plastic tubing, pipe, hose can build up a lot of static charge.  If all the planets are aligned just right in perfect syzygy you can have a dust explosion.  Again, the perfect mix of having a combustible mixture at just the right concentration and a charge strong enough to make an arc at just the right time has to happen...but it can.

 

I love the Mythbusters.  But their technical (scientific) competency isn't always on track.  It was a great show to see neat demonstrations of things, but you have to judge their methods and conclusions with some scrutiny.  While they may have shown that it's not very probable to create a fire hazard with static, I'm not sure they should have concluded it was a myth busted.

 

Tires are actually somewhat conductive since they contain quite a bit of carbon black (that's why tires are black in the first place).  If they weren't, we'd probably be getting shocked regularly when we amble out of the driver seat and touch ground.  But I can see that a static strap would augment ability for a car to dissipate static.  I think there is less C-black in tire rubber today than in days past so this is probably more useful now than before.   I never would have thought of that for gasfield operation, but it certainly makes a lot of sense.  Smart.

 

Steve

Edited January 25, 2019 by wh500special

[C-85 681]

The fuel trucks we had in the US Army had a separate ground cable that we hooked to the vehicle being fueled.  I always thought this was overkill, but maybe not.

 

We had 5 Tons with fuel pods, similar to this but older.

 

 

C-85

[aghead 72]

I run a Stihl 046 Magnum with a 25" bar sawing through a 30" white oak log, the super sharp chain is turning at maybe a 1000 mph, 8" from my hand and 24" from my jugular vein.

 

I syphoned gas (Ethyl) out of my dad's truck with an old piece of water hose straight into the tank on an old wobble wheel push mower w/o any blade guards, brakes or hand throttle, no safety stuff! I had to kill it by bogging it down or pulling the plug wire

Most of the gas hit the muffler, mostly rotted out useless, and steamed off it, the rest went down my throat, lungs and out my nose. I was prob 10 yo and mowed an acre barefooted. And that slingblade...!

 

Static ignition of fuel vapor is not high on my concern list.

 

Edited January 23, 2019 by aghead

[buckrancher 2,679]

you should not have a static problem with a plastic can as plastic is a insulator and does not transfer electricity as a metal can does 

 

brian

[Sarge 3,463]

Any work performed near gas pipelines falls into a whole slew of rules dealing with static, especially with the welding rigs. Those guys run not only static straps but use a whole network of grounding cables to keep that welding machine from charging the truck like a capacitor and creating static discharge or other electrical issues. Like I said, anyone on or near the job site must have static straps on their vehicles - it is absolutely required and a lot more common than you think. The reason I learned about MItzer and their brand of straps was through a pipeline company - they prefer those clamped directly to the frame versus just hanging the cheaper Gates or similar off the tow hitch or whatever, and I agree. It makes a big difference in how much static builds up in your vehicle. On my own rigs, especially my '14 Dodge - those are notorious for building up a charge and hitting the driver when they get out - the strap will practically eliminate it completely. While I don't fully understand all the science, there are also benefits in relation to corrosion issues in sheet metal.

 

Plastics and static generation problems are common - there is a reason that bulk fuel tanks for pickups are generally never made from poly, static being the biggest problem. I've worked on several fuel station rebuilds/cleanup jobs and the amount of attention directed towards grounding that system properly is pretty intense. There are so many rules concerning the pumps/tanks/wiring systems and placement of grounding rods its enough to drive a guy crazy trying to keep track of it all. At one job at a Casey's store, one lousy ground rod was missed and the inspector hadn't checked off on it - we had to tear out a 6'x6' piece of the concrete lot to install that rod, which was 20' long, they don't screw around with that stuff one bit. The company doing the pump/lines/tank install work got fined for that one little mistake - so it is taken pretty seriously.

 

I wouldn't ignore the plastic tank issue and static, personally. I've gotten shocks with just my 5 gallon cans enough to warrant taking care to place them on the ground. Some stations have actually taken things to the point that if they see someone trying to fuel a can in the back of a vehicle they will not turn on the pump, so keep that in mind. 

 

Sarge

[Mikey the Monkey 697]

sarge, because of your sound advice i ordered 2 straps from mizter.com. on the website it claims to help prevent car sickness. any idea how they do that?

[buckrancher 2,679]

www.ccohs.ca › OSH Answers › Flammable and Combustible Liquids

Do all kinds of containers have to be bonded or grounded?

You only need to bond those containers that conduct electricity, such as those made from metal or special, conductive plastics.

If a container is made from a material that does not conduct electricity, such as polyethylene plastic or glass, bonding or grounding is not necessary: in fact grounding the container will not have any effect

Edited January 24, 2019 by buckrancher

[Racinbob 11,042]

Static is a very real thing with plastic cans. Been there, felt it. Static isn't all about the conductivity of the container. This article explains it better than I can:

 

Static electricity is caused by friction between dissimilar materials, specifically at the molecular level. As the molecules rub together there can be an exchange of protons (+ charge) and electrons (- charge). An uneven exchange of particles can lead to an increase of electrical potential between the objects - a buildup of static electricity. This state of imbalance needs to be rectified. The electrical potential may bleed away slowly, or it might under certain conditions discharge suddenly as a relatively small spark (although still several thousand volts) or as lightning (billions of volts.) 
How much static electricity builds up depends on a number of factors, particularly what type of materials are in contact, what types of containers they are stored in, how much friction is generated and prevailing weather conditions. Static electricity becomes more prevalent with decreasing humidity because humid air allows any buildup of static electricity to dissipate quickly. For example, rubbing fabrics containing nylon can produce a dangerous electrical potential in air with a relative humidity below 35%, and below 20% RH even cotton can produce enough charge potential to ignite petrol vapors. This is relevant because in a US study of fires caused by static electricity while refueling at service stations it was found that in well over half of all incidents, the static electricity built up because people got back into their cars while refueling was taking place, rubbed against seats etc. and then returned to the fuel nozzle, and touched it, causing a spark to ignite the fuel. 
Non-conductive materials, including petrol, and the plastic containers it may be stored in can cause a problem because when a static charge builds up it can take some time to dissipate, and even bonding or grounding/earthing will be ineffective. Putting a metal fuel container on the ground, or even touching it will probably release the electrical potential. Humans are good electrical conductors, damp bare ground is an excellent conductor, dry ground is a good conductor, and concrete and bitumen are reasonable conductors. However most plastic fuel containers are very poor conductors, and if there is an electrical potential inside the plastic container or within the fuel it contains, grounding will probably be ineffective. For this reason, if there is a possibility of a static charge buildup within these containers, for example if the container has just been filled, or has been bouncing around in the boot of a car, it would be prudent to wait a while before using it to refuel. How long do you wait? Your guess is as good as mine, but I would think half an hour would be sufficient. It is still recommended that plastic fuel containers are placed on the ground when they are being filled however. There is still likely to be some earthing effect, and studies have shown that the ability of fuel to retain "capacitance" (store an electrical charge) increases with distance from earth. Isn't physics mysterious and wonderful? 

 

[wh500special 2,160]

On 1/23/2019 at 3:43 PM, buckrancher said:

you should not have a static problem with a plastic can as plastic is a insulator and does not transfer electricity as a metal can does 

 

brian

The lack of conductivity is exactly the problem.   It allows the charge to build up faster than it can dissipate. 

 

I am in agreement with your post below.  Grounding plastic containers won’t generally do much good for the very reason of lack of conductivity thru the plastic.  

 

Sometimes modest gains can be made by grounding plastics in a well dispersed means.  But not common or reliable.   I probably should have emphasized the word “might” in my previous post when I mentioned the steel plate.  

 

Steve