posi traction wheelhorse's

[mrc 841]

hello men,   from hanging out at this site i've learned that some wheelhorse tractors have a 10 pinion posi traction tranny. 

  which models have this? 

  this 10 pinion is it 8 speed or hydro?

  if hydro is it hydrogear or piston to piston? 

  can you swap a piston to piston hydro vs. hydro gear?

  thank you mike in mass.   

[ebinmaine 68,301]

Hi Mike.

I don't have all the answers to your questions but I can tell you that around 1967 to around 1970 is the time period that they used those...

 

Limited slip...

 

Transmissions.

 

They weren't a true posi traction, so to speak.

They were 6 Speed in the early years and then marketed as 8 speed. Same basic transmission with minor changes.

I don't know if there were any hydros made as limited slip.

I didn't know it until just recently but I understand there was also 8 pinion transmissions that may have been limited slip.

There's a video by @stevasaurus that shows the spring that sits between all the pinion gears which acts as resistance to make it limited slip.

 

I'm sure at some point him and several others will be along to answer the rest of your questions.

 

[oliver2-44 9,848]

My 1978 C81 8 speed has the limited slip 10 pinion per the IPL.  I'm just getting it going, but in a recent trial,  It sure can push some dirt with a dozer blade for a little 8 hp.   I plan to go through the transmission soon as its hard to shift between high and low, and I suspect part of the shift mechanism is rusted from it sitting quite a while.

 

[Skipper 1,788]

You can install the limited slip diff spring in the 8 pinion 1 1/8" transmissions as well. That is a stronger solution, and works on both hydro and manuals, as the diff part is the same.

 

Lowell would have all you need, spring and gaskets etc. When you have it apart, check bearings and bushings as well

[953 nut 55,757]

Eric @ebinmaine has covered it very well.

The 5060 Transaxles in the 1067, 1267, 1968 Raider 10 and Raider 12 are ten pinion limited slit. In 1969 the 5071 transaxle was used in the Raider 10 and 12 with the ten pinion limited slip. Also, the 5073 Transaxle in the 1970 to 1973 Raider 10, 12 and 14 as well as the 1973 Raider 14 have the the limited slip ten pinion units. In 1974 only the Raider 14 used the 5073.

The Sundstrand 90-2046 in the 1968 to 1973 Charger, Electro and Bronco were equipped with the ten pinion limited slip as well as the Sundstrand 90-2062 used in the GT-14. These were all Hydrogear, none were piston to piston.

One of the many outstanding features of  is the interchangeability of parts. You can use the ten pinion (if you can find one) in a variety of older and newer transaxles that have 1 1/8" axles. On the older ones you will need to cut a groove for a snap ring in place of the roll pin in your axles as seem below.

[peter lena 8,720]

Oliver 2-44 , noticed your stiff shifting issue , had a similar problem, flushed it out twice , with use and working it , using atf fluid as a flushing agent , it just kept getting better. I also have access to small housing project , which lets me  drive and test things , more than a lawn does. anyway it shifts smooth and easy now  with no hang ups . my experience , pete 

[stevasaurus 22,861]

With respect to trying to make an 8 pinion differential a limited slip by adding the spring...that is NOT going to work.  The 8 pinion differential has the pinions on a post...adding the spring (if it even fits) will not do anything.  The 10 pinion differential has 10 pinions that "float"...ie. they are not on a post...that is why you need a spring.

   What you can do, is swap out the whole 8 pinion differential with a complete 10 pinion differential and vise/verse.  This is not just a swap that is by itself, it takes the right mushroom gear or a little grinding fabrication.  Search for threads discussing this.

   @mrc  The best way to find out if a certain horse has the limited slip differential is, to go into our "Manuals" section and find the IPL of a particular horse and see the break down of it's transmission.  Richard (above) did an excellent job of giving you the horses that have the LS differentials.  The #5060, #5071 and #5073 are the most common manual LS transmissions. They do exist in the hydro world also...that is why search for the IPL.  

[wallfish 17,079]

50 minutes ago, stevasaurus said:

.adding the spring (if it even fits) will not do anything.

I thought the pressure of the spring applying friction on the pinion gears is what causes the limited slip effect. There was a thread going on where one member was testing this out but can't seem to find it or remember if he ever posted the results of his findings. Maybe it was @pfrederi

[pfrederi 17,866]

I swapped out the differential Steve is right the spring doesn't make and 8 speed limited slip.  I had a 2 part mushroom gear so the swap was easy.

[stevasaurus 22,861]

Thanks Paul...I know that I am not always right...you guys would not love me if I was.  It makes cents, since, sense that Wheel Horse would have put that spring in if it would have made an 8 pinion differential Limited Slip...it does not...that is why the 10 pinion, floating, pinion differential.  I know it is hard to picture, I'm not sure I get it my self, but the limited slip is not a "posi-traction"...it is some thing that when you have one tire slipping the other tire will try to grab.  The other thing to remember about limited slip...you have to be going in a straight direction.  It is not meant to function when turning.  The differential will act like a differential if you are turning...not like a LS.

   You need a 10 pinion differential, with a good spring to have the Limited Slip...end of story. 

[wallfish 17,079]

Found that thread I was referring to earlier but it doesn't really contain a conclusion. I've never had a 10 pinion trans to look at so why do you suppose the floating pinions make the difference?

 

[stevasaurus 22,861]

Here is what I think is the main reason.  The Ponds did not spend money they did not have to.  If putting a spring in a 8 pinion differential would make it a limited slip...you would not have to go through the cost of making a 10 pinion with no posts holding the pinions and all the changes that go with it.  If you have something that would refute what I just put out there...bring it on.  Show me pictures of a 8 pinion differential with a 10 pinion spring in it and a video of the front end up against a fence on ice.  Show me both wheels turning in a video.  IT IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN!!   I'll buy the Scotch.   Locking the transmission is not an option. 

.

[ebinmaine 68,301]

After having looked at the video that shows the 10 pinions which are all in a circle from one another and then looking at the picture that is in the link by

@wallfish

of the eight pinion ...

I see two differences. One is that the eight pinion obviously has pins on the end of the pinions. They are not floating gears.

I don't know enough about drivelines and gears to tell you why that matters.

 

if anybody knows why it matters that the 10 pinion has full floating gears and they ride in a bath of oil instead of using pins to locate themselves I would love to know the actual answer.

 

 

The other thing I see maybe an illusion of the picture but it seems like the eight gears are in more of a box like formation, not a round Circle.

If that's the case, the spring would also have to be in a square and that would defeat the purpose of them being able to rotate in a circle around one another to bypass each other in cornering situations.

 

[953 nut 55,757]

I don't have an eight pinion differential hanging around but know that the axle gears are the same size on both so I feel it is very conceivable that it would be compatible with the limited slip ring from the ten pinion unit. Four of the pinions drive the right axle and four drive the left side. The spring would apply pressure on all eight just like it does inside the ten pinion resulting in the same friction driving the slower axle if it were slipping. If anyone has an eight pinion 1 1/8" differential they want to contribute to the experiment send it to me and I will buy the spring from Lowell and have a transaxle that I can test it in.

I did just put a ten pinion limited slip into a 953 transaxle today and can dispel one myth, no modifications of the bull gear are needed!

We had a thread going a couple weeks back that contended that the bull gear needed to be cut to install a ten pinion in a 953 transaxle, not sure how that was a problem unless the differential was put in with the short side down rather than up. The only thing I did was cut the grooves in the axles for the snap rings.

Edited December 27, 2018 by 953 nut

[wallfish 17,079]

Here is what I think is the main reason.  The Ponds did not spend money they did not have to.  If putting a spring in a 8 pinion differential would make it a limited slip...you would not have to go through the cost of making a 10 pinion with no posts holding the pinions and all the changes that go with it.  If you have something that would refute what I just put out there...bring it on.

 

Think you misunderstood my question Steve. I'm not trying to argue the point about it working or not working!!!! Just curious about the reason why and how floating pinions would be the reason why it wouldn't. Ponds not spending money really doesn't explain anything about the physical principles as to why it won't work.

Edited December 27, 2018 by wallfish

[Skipper 1,788]

Not to dispute Steve, as he is pretty much always right. But I'm getting really confused here. The principals of why the LSD should work, seem to be somewhat the same, and according to pfrederis own testing videos, the not so good spring in the test gave up to a 75"/lb LSD effect in an 8 pinion diff. 

 

What am I missing here?

 

Anyone has a 10 pinion LSD they can do measurements on, and throw a spring in an 8 pinion to compare results? Would be nice to get this either 100% confirmed or put in the ground.

Edited December 27, 2018 by Skipper

[Cetan08 311]

I have looked at the files on both the 10 and 8 pinion models. I just don't see the spring that everyone is talking about. Does someone have a clear picture of it in it's place?

The other question I have is, is there room for double springs like they use on valve springs? One inside or outside of the other to increase the pressure rather than a stronger spring.

Just throwing some ideas out there.

[ebinmaine 68,301]

8 minutes ago, Cetan08 said:

I have looked at the files on both the 10 and 8 pinion models. I just don't see the spring that everyone is talking about. Does someone have a clear picture of it in it's place?

The other question I have is, is there room for double springs like they use on valve springs? One inside or outside of the other to increase the pressure rather than a stronger spring.

Just throwing some ideas out there.

It isn't the spring in the traditional coil spring sense. It's a circle of Steel with a gap on one side that locks in between all of the differential gears inside of a 10 pinion differential.

if you go to the instructional videos section, transmission section, look for the rebuild by Stevasaurus on the 5060 and scroll down to the first video which should be the differential assembly video...

two or three minutes into it you'll see him handling something with a very large pair of channel lock pliers. That's the spring we are talking of.

[stevasaurus 22,861]

@953 nut said.

I did just put a ten pinion limited slip into a 953 transaxle today and can dispel one myth, no modifications of the bull gear are needed!

 

My question would be if you had a 2 piece mushroom gear or the 1 piece.  I think, grinding a little off the bull gear with the 1 piece mushroom gear is what is needed to happen.  It is not much, so it possible to put it together, but in those pictures you could see where the chipping resulted.  Not trying to get into a thing with you here Richard, just looking at the pictures and talking about what may be going on.  I wish I had a 10 and an 8 pinion to have apart together and see what is possible and what is not.

 

I am still going to stay with if it would have worked the Ponds would have done it.  I think the 8 pinion is too much of a square to have that round spring do anything. 

 

@Skipper...you just may be the guy to have both of these kind of trannys available to open up and check this stuff out.  It is a great conversation, and we should continue it.  We just have to be careful not to put out what could be mis-information.  Let's try to do this and see, but let's let everyone know this is a test...we are not sure if it works.  How are you doing Mate?  I heard you just came over again, and you did not call me...WTF!!!   LOL

[Cetan08 311]

I agree that we need to pursue this.

It is my understanding that that the spring puts pressure against the pinion gears???

Not sure how much room there is between the two axle gears on the 8 pinion, but what about a clutch stack or something along those lines on the ends of the axles rather than the spring.

I will try to draw something up to explain what I am suggesting.

[stevasaurus 22,861]

@Cetan08  now you are talking...this is the direction that this thread should go.  Everything else before is just most of us trying to think in our minds how this all works.  Videos and pictures for sure.     This is going to be what we think is possible...because a lot of the parts are common to the different transmissions.  I wish I had a few of these laying around.

[wallfish 17,079]

From the link to the thread posted above. Does this help?

[wallfish 17,079]

46 minutes ago, Cetan08 said:

Not sure how much room there is between the two axle gears on the 8 pinion, but what about a clutch stack or something along those lines on the ends of the axles rather than the spring.

interesting

[ebinmaine 68,301]

Let me just say first and foremost I am no machinist or engineer

 

As to the 8 pinion axle...

Would it be possible to create a mechanism which might replace all 8 pinions and put a spring where they would have been? Regular coil spring or something like a garage door type spring worrying you would have plates on each end of the spring that would lock into where the pinion gear pins used to be?

 

if one tire needed to rotate one way or the other the spring would allow such a thing and then it would retract itself back to Center thus giving limited-slip.

[953 nut 55,757]

1 hour ago, Cetan08 said:

I just don't see the spring that everyone is talking about. Does someone have a clear picture of it in it's place?

The spring we are talking about is called a "Cylindrical Spring" and can be seen in Section III of the manual covering the 5060  6 speed  Limited Slip. figure 8 has a good picture of how it is installed. This spring applies outward pressure to all the pinions, half of the pinions are meshed with the right axle, half are meshed with the left axle.

The whole idea is that the tension of the spring makes strong contact with the pinions which are meshed with the axle gears. When one wheel has no traction on an open differential the power shifts to the axle with the least traction. With a limited slip the strong contact from the pinions on both axles will continue to transfer power to both wheels when one has less traction.

John @wallfish  posted some great pictures while I was doing this write up.