posi traction wheelhorse's

[Cetan08 311]

Very ruff drawing here. These units would slip on the ends of each axle with interlocking rounded teeth . Behind each of these would be a spring washer that would allow the teeth to slip when turning.

 

[953 nut 55,756]

1 hour ago, stevasaurus said:

My question would be if you had a 2 piece mushroom gear or the 1 piece.

If you are talking about what you usually call the 44-11 gear ( manual calls it Gear-Brake Shaft) it is a one piece unit

1 hour ago, stevasaurus said:

in those pictures you could see where the chipping resulted.

What chipping do you see?

 

[Skipper 1,788]

2 hours ago, stevasaurus said:

@Skipper...you just may be the guy to have both of these kind of trannys available to open up and check this stuff out.  It is a great conversation, and we should continue it.  We just have to be careful not to put out what could be mis-information.  Let's try to do this and see, but let's let everyone know this is a test...we are not sure if it works.  How are you doing Mate?  I heard you just came over again, and you did not call me...WTF!!!   LOL

 

Hey buddy. I am guessing it is bob that spilled the beans on that 

 

Yeah it was a pure business trip, with no room for fun, so sorry to not head up your way. Got a 45 footer HC fully loaded though, so there will for sure be lots to dig into this spring . No lose trannys with 10 pinion though. 

 

You are right, I could have layed hands on them. But buying two trannys just for testing this, was not on the agenda at that point in time. I will do it in a years time, if no one else has done it before then . And next year I will try to make time to come by. 

 

I agree that we should not spread rumors. I understood the testing done in the other tread to be good info. Sorry if that was not the case. Lets get this tested. Someone must be sitting on both items..........

[Skipper 1,788]

3 hours ago, Cetan08 said:

I agree that we need to pursue this.

It is my understanding that that the spring puts pressure against the pinion gears???

Not sure how much room there is between the two axle gears on the 8 pinion, but what about a clutch stack or something along those lines on the ends of the axles rather than the spring.

I will try to draw something up to explain what I am suggesting.

 

What you are describing (if I understand you right) is basically a standart automotive clutch plate type LSD setup. There are some basic principals that need to be met for that to work as intended. 1. you need to apply a certain amount of torque, that needs to be counteracted by the wheels before it starts working as intended, and 2. It needs an internal setup of typical cone/bevel gears, because the outgoing forces ( push the gears apart forces), is in effect what makes the progressiv ramp up of the locking mechanism. So to speak, it is what ever force you feed it, that it uses to lock up. The preloaded spring in them, is just to have a mild preset lock.

A setup like this would not fit inside the diff as it is now. However, if you throw the whole diff away, and had some axles made up in right size to fit a std LSD unit, and had it machined to fit the big bullgear, it might be a viable option. There are small size LSD units available for atv's etc.

 

The first hurdle is with our light tractors, and in slippery condition, if we can put enough torque into it to make it "lock up", or not. The second is if it can be fitted instead of the WH diff unit. I think it is doable, but it will not be a walk in the park, thats for sure. Third obstacle would also be if it could be pretensionened low enough to not give a constant lock, and let the diff work freely in turning situations, and that pretension would be more or less specifik from tractor to tractor, based on weight and tire choice etc. It's a balance, but I do think it could work. This is the most simple LSD type in automotive terms, and if you can do all machining etc yourself, you are looking at parts worth at least 500 or more I would guesstimate.

 

Oh, and LSD's with clutch plates would need a dedicated oil to work properly.

 

Try to imagine this, machined to fit inside the big bull gear, and with correct axles.

Edited December 28, 2018 by Skipper

[Cetan08 311]

How about a spring shaped like this rather than a round one.

The pinion gears set in the dips in the spring. The dips are set to match all eight pinions.

I agree Skipper. Making it like an auto locker would be cost prohibited.

I was thinking more in the lines of creating some sort of friction plates between the ends of the axles.

One of those things where I can see the picture in my mind but just cannot put it clearly into words.

 

[stevasaurus 22,861]

While all this fabrication is interesting, this is not what this thread is all about.  I don't think we are trying to build or fabricate a Limited Slip Deferential. 

 

It was stated that you could take the cylindrical spring from a 10 pinion differential...put it into an 8 pinion differential and make that a Limited Slip.  That's it.  Somebody that is opening an 8 pinion differential needs to put the spring in there...put the trans back together...put the nose of the horse against a tree (with the horse on snow or ice)...put it in gear and take a video of both wheels going in the same direction.  Boom-Sha-Ka-La-Ka.

   When that doesn't work, we can start rebuilding the differential.  LOL        

 

Richard, here are the pictures of the chipped mushroom gear / 11-44 toothed gear / or what ever else you want to call it.    I'm thinking you don't have this problem with the 2 piece 11/44 gear.

 

 

[Cetan08 311]

Where can I get the spring?

I have an 8 in my C-121 and will take it apart and try it. Would love to see this work for all the 8 pinion owners but if it doesn't then we can make something.

[stevasaurus 22,861]

@Cetan08  Now, that's what I am talking about...Thank You.  I think Lowell has had some made, but rather then buying one...maybe someone has a spare they would let you try.  Let's see if someone steps up.    

[953 nut 55,756]

55 minutes ago, stevasaurus said:

here are the pictures of the chipped mushroom gear / 11-44 toothed gear / or what ever else you want to call it.    I'm thinking you don't have this problem with the 2 piece 11/44 gear.

Steve, thanks for posting this picture. Looking at the picture it is obvious to me that the differential was put in upside down. The long end of the differential should be down which provides ample room between the Bull gear and the mushroom gear. Regardless of what differential you are installing the long end will need to face the 44 tooth gear. I too have the one piece "Mushroom gear" and here are a couple of pictures to compare. The top one is the one you sent where the bull gear had been cut to clear the 11 tooth gear. The second one is my tenpinion with the long side of the differential down toward the 44 tooth gear.

As you can see the teeth in my differential line up where the teeth of the 953 bull gear had been riding. The picture below is from your thread on the 5060 ten pinion 6 Speed and the differential is riding the same way as mine is. This reinforces my suspicion that the whole problem that others have encountered boils down to the differential being installed backward resulting in gears clashing. Take a look and see what you think.

[953 nut 55,756]

1 hour ago, Cetan08 said:

Where can I get the spring?

I have an 8 in my C-121 and will take it apart and try it. Would love to see this work for all the 8 pinion owners but if it doesn't then we can make something.

Here is the link for the spring we are talking about, They are $ 25.00 each and the same vendor sells the gasket for the case.

https://www.wheelhorsepartsandmore.com/transmissions.html#!/7235-spring/p/101489902/category=23548039

I will make @stevasaurus an offer. He is convinced the spring won't work in the eight pinion and I am sure it will. If you install the spring in accordance with the instructions on page 33 and 34 of this manual and it works as I expect, Steve owes you $ 25.00. If you do so and it fails to provide a limited slip function then I will pay you the $ 25.00. Either way we will be able to put this subject to rest (sort of like Mythbusters on TV).

What do you think Steve, are you in?

 

[stevasaurus 22,861]

I am in.  The spring has to be from a #5060, #5071, #5073...put it in an 8 speed...put the horse up against a tree (or another immovable object)  on snow or ice...take video of both tires moving in the same direction.  I will up the ante Richard.  Loser buys the spring and sends $25 to the winner...makes it $50.  The wager is about taking the spring from a 10 pinion differential and putting it into an 8 pinion differential and a video showing both tires moving in the same direction.  If this is OK...I am in.

 

Obviously, we want pictures of the process through out.

 

One thing about those pictures Richard...and I have since typed about this...the manual want those bolts reversed from what I show.  If you read in the thread...the manual wants the nuts toward the right side in the #5060 transmissions.    Is there a reason you are coming after me??

[953 nut 55,756]

3 minutes ago, stevasaurus said:

I am in.  The spring has to be from a #5060, #5071, #5073...put it in an 8 speed...put the horse up against a tree (or another immovable object)  on snow or ice...take video of both tires moving in the same direction.  I will up the ante Richard.  Loser buys the spring and sends $25 to the winner...makes it $50.  The wager is about taking the spring from a 10 pinion differential and putting it into an 8 pinion differential and a video showing both tires moving in the same direction.  If this is OK...I am in.

 

Obviously, we want pictures of the process through out.

@Skipper, @wallfish and @pfrederi can be the judges! I already have plans for MY $25.00 winnings!          

[Skipper 1,788]

Just remember that due to the obvious differences between the 8 and 10 pinion unit, the 8 pinion may require a spring that it either weeker or stronger, to perform similar. it would be a coincident if it is a spot on identical performance on the first try.

 

my guess is that it needs a stronger spring...............

 

I would really also like a more scientific measure, than just spinning tires on ice. A force measure of moving the diff one side locked, from static to moving. whats the initial "slip" force?. That would be nice to see for both units, and also tell us a whole lot about what the spring force should be to fit an 8 pinion unit.

 

The spring obviously needs to be fresh.

Edited December 28, 2018 by Skipper

[953 nut 55,756]

13 minutes ago, Skipper said:

remember that due to the obvious differences between the 8 and 10 pinion unit, the 8 pinion may require a spring that it either weeker or stronger, to perform similar. it would be a coincident if it is spot on in the first try.

Time will tell. I know Paul came up with a test like you are talking about with a torque wrench.

[Cetan08 311]

Spring is ordered. 

 

[wallfish 17,079]

Modifications to the spring ( so it will fit and or adjusting the tension of it ) should be allowed. It is still adding a spring only and the ultimate goal here is to get it work if it's possible

[DennisThornton 4,769]

Watching intently!

[Skipper 1,788]

9 minutes ago, wallfish said:

Modifications to the spring ( so it will fit and or adjusting the tension of it ) should be allowed. It is still adding a spring only and the ultimate goal here is to get it work if it's possible

 

A redesigned spring should also be allowed to give it a fair shot. After all the current spring was designed specifically to the 10 pinion unit.

 

 

[wallfish 17,079]

41 minutes ago, Skipper said:

 

A redesigned spring should also be allowed to give it a fair shot. After all the current spring was designed specifically to the 10 pinion unit.

  

 

A spring shaped like @Cetan08 posted would certainly have more surface area for creating more friction against the pinions. After looking at the IPL for the 10 pinion, the floating pinions are cradled in the body (#39) which appears to me like it's the body which creates most of the friction. Maybe not, as I don't have one to play with.

Paul's bench test with a weaker spring certainly produced some resistance results but it was done dry and not immersed in gear oil. It's a double edged sword where it needs both, friction and lubrication. Which is where actual testing in a trans should give us some good data to work with.

 

Hate to throw a curveball at this juncture in the game but...What about creating more friction on the pinion gears right on the pinion's posts? Like very thin thrust washers placed on each pinion and pinched in there?

[Skipper 1,788]

I agree that the 10 pinion unit has friction on the cradle, but I also do think that most of the action comes from the springs compression when the tooth has to force it's way thru. Just like you see (sort of) in a torque limiter of simple design.

 

I was tumbling with the idea of a set of springs on the outside, instead of in the center, if it turns out that the geometry of the 8 pinion ain't ideal to facilitate spring action.

[953 nut 55,756]

1 hour ago, Skipper said:

if it turns out that the geometry of the 8 pinion ain't ideal to facilitate spring action.

All pinion gears are arranged in a circle so they will contact the axle gear. Half are in contact with the left axle, half with the right side

The outside diameter of the axle gears on the eight pinion and ten pinion are the same. The only factor that will change is the number of pinion teeth contacting the spring will be reduced from five per axle to four. This may reduce the limited slip effect slightly when the torque is measured, but it will be a huge improvement over an open differential. The outward pressure of the spring against the pinion gears will reduce the slippage regardless of the number of pinions, heck, might even work on a four pinion.

[Skipper 1,788]

Yes, but how the teeth are aligned, determine how much the spring needs to me compressed for each tooth passing. It is way to early yet to design other springs etc, but airing the idea of better spring design will come up eventually I'm sure :-)

[Racinbob 11,206]

This will be interesting. My opinion is that Steve will win this. Putting one axle in a vice and a measure of resistance turning the free axle doesn't necessarily mean a transfer of power. It could mean that things are partially bound up and the spring could be causing it. Best case scenario it might work to an extent but the wear on the pinions would be excessive and a short life would come of it. I can't help but think the 10 pinion diffs were dropped in favor of the 8 pinion due to issues. I went through countless IPL's and unless I missed something the Sunstrand hydros stopped using the 10 pinion at the same time the manuals did. I firmly believe that anybody that has one in a later model is was swapped out at some point. 

 

With that being said, Steve and I have discussed this and many other issues concerning transmissions and are in agreement on this one. BUT...…..we both have been wrong many times and could be on this one too. This is an interesting and fun thread to read and I'm looking forward to seeing the results. If it does provide limited slip capabilities then I would want to see the longer term effects on the pinions. I could use some extra traction just mowing this crazy yard. Shifting this skinny butt over the slipping wheel doesn't do much for me.

[Cetan08 311]

I agree that there was a reason for dropping the ten pinion after a short time. I suspect that it was excessive wear or even the spring breaking and we all know what that could do.

We shall see.

[ebinmaine 68,301]

Given that many things are prone to a certain issue...

What seems to go wrong with the 10 pinion?

 

I've read multiple times that the 8 pinion is stronger..... But why?